GLP-1RA's better than SGLT2i's for PAD + T2D

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Eddy Edson

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Relationship to Diabetes
Type 2

Results

A total of 287,091 patients were eligible for analysis, with 81,152 patients treated with SGLT2i and 20,288 patients treated with GLP1RA after matching. The incidence of MALE [major adverse limb events] was significantly lower in the GLP1RA group than in the SGLT2i group (3.6 vs 4.5 events per 1000 person-years; subdistribution HR 0.80; 95% CI 0.67, 0.96), primarily due to a lower incidence of critical limb ischaemia. The reduced risks of MALE associated with GLP1RA use were particularly noticeable in people with diabetic peripheral neuropathy (subdistribution HR 0.66 vs 1.11; p for interaction 0.006).

Conclusions/interpretation

In people with diabetes, GLP1RA use was associated with significantly reduced risks of MALE compared with SGLT2i within the first 2 years after initiation, especially among people with diabetic neuropathy.

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Thanks. So basically I got diagnosed with a blood clot in my femoral artery march 21which was the result of having undiagnosed PAD. The claudication can be excruciatingly painful and infuriating, guess I was just wondering if you had any tips on how to get to 10k a day? (Without tears )
 
Thanks. So basically I got diagnosed with a blood clot in my femoral artery march 21which was the result of having undiagnosed PAD. The claudication can be excruciatingly painful and infuriating, guess I was just wondering if you had any tips on how to get to 10k a day? (Without tears )
Uggggh - painful!

This is what has worked for me (really just standard guidance):

- Keep pushing the walking. Unfortunately, for me it really was no pain = no gain with this beast, in the early days at least.

I've always enjoyed walking and I was really frustrated at getting claudi-clobbered every few hundred metres. So I kept pushing it, basically walking as far as I could stand, resting for a few minutes & then doing it again, over & over, on most days.

What happened is that I pretty quickly started to develop a big array of collateral vessels, snaking all over my leg & bypassing the femoral artery, which has pretty much ceased to exist between groin and knee. Also, my calf muscles slowly got more efficient.

So the net effect is that fairly soon (like 2-3 months) things started to get much better, and really they have continued to improve in the 3+ years since then. I can walk for kilometres at ~120 steps/minute without any real claudication; just tiredness and heaviness in the calf and foot of the gammy leg - and hills continue to be tough.

That was just me & I don't know if you need to push it as hard as I did & do to get the same benefits. But looking at all the PAD walking-therapy studies, I can now walk way way further and faster than the groups involved, despite starting out at the same kind of level. So maybe it was necessary.

Should also say that I get a definite dopamine buzz from walking. So with the buzz and pretty rapid collateral-linked walking improvements, I was lucky that the pain/gain balance was favourable.

- Growing that collateral network was the big improvement for me. I believe that this "angiogenesis" response varies a lot between individuals. I got lucky, I think.

But also you can do think things to promote the growth. Obviously, no smoking. Get BP under control.

Getting LDL cholesterol as low as you can is important for collateral development as well as controlling atherosclerosis risks. PAD is just as serious as coronary artery disease etc, but it seldom seems to be treated that way by GP's. Unless there is some other medical reason not to, you should be on max dose statins (80mg atorvastatin per day in the UK, as first line) - it's great that the NHS England guidelines now make that explicit, for PAD as well as for CAD etc. Follow the standard heart-healthy dietary advice: sharply limit saturated fat, salt, refined carbs; eat lots of fruit, veg, legumes, nuts, seeds, plant/lean protein.

- Generally I don't think this thing gets treated & supported very well, particularly versus heart disease, and it seems that you usually need to deal with it yourself to a large extent. But if you think that a structured group walking program would be useful, maybe worth harassing your HCP's to see if you there is one available.
 
Uggggh - painful!

This is what has worked for me (really just standard guidance):

- Keep pushing the walking. Unfortunately, for me it really was no pain = no gain with this beast, in the early days at least.

I've always enjoyed walking and I was really frustrated at getting claudi-clobbered every few hundred metres. So I kept pushing it, basically walking as far as I could stand, resting for a few minutes & then doing it again, over & over, on most days.

What happened is that I pretty quickly started to develop a big array of collateral vessels, snaking all over my leg & bypassing the femoral artery, which has pretty much ceased to exist between groin and knee. Also, my calf muscles slowly got more efficient.

So the net effect is that fairly soon (like 2-3 months) things started to get much better, and really they have continued to improve in the 3+ years since then. I can walk for kilometres at ~120 steps/minute without any real claudication; just tiredness and heaviness in the calf and foot of the gammy leg - and hills continue to be tough.

That was just me & I don't know if you need to push it as hard as I did & do to get the same benefits. But looking at all the PAD walking-therapy studies, I can now walk way way further and faster than the groups involved, despite starting out at the same kind of level. So maybe it was necessary.

Should also say that I get a definite dopamine buzz from walking. So with the buzz and pretty rapid collateral-linked walking improvements, I was lucky that the pain/gain balance was favourable.

- Growing that collateral network was the big improvement for me. I believe that this "angiogenesis" response varies a lot between individuals. I got lucky, I think.

But also you can do think things to promote the growth. Obviously, no smoking. Get BP under control.

Getting LDL cholesterol as low as you can is important for collateral development as well as controlling atherosclerosis risks. PAD is just as serious as coronary artery disease etc, but it seldom seems to be treated that way by GP's. Unless there is some other medical reason not to, you should be on max dose statins (80mg atorvastatin per day in the UK, as first line) - it's great that the NHS England guidelines now make that explicit, for PAD as well as for CAD etc. Follow the standard heart-healthy dietary advice: sharply limit saturated fat, salt, refined carbs; eat lots of fruit, veg, legumes, nuts, seeds, plant/lean protein.

- Generally I don't think this thing gets treated & supported very well, particularly versus heart disease, and it seems that you usually need to deal with it yourself to a large extent. But if you think that a structured group walking program would be useful, maybe worth harassing your HCP's to see if you there is one available.
Thank you so much for the above Eddy! At diagnosis I could barely walk the length of my living room without tears welling up, I can now go about 1.5km slowly (not saying by the end of it I’m dancing lol) I am getting there I guess just slower than I’d like, suppose a heart attack and a TI might scupper recovery!
 
.... suppose a heart attack and a TI might scupper recovery!
Are you getting good vascular advice? Where I am (in Oz) it's handled by vascular surgeons & my one isn't interested in anything unless it involves wielding a scalpel.

At the end of 2020 I suddenly regressed all the way back - went from being able to walk a few kilometres reasonably comfortably to cramping up after a few hundred metres once again. My guy ordered a CT angiogram and when that didn't show a need for surgery he wasn't interested - vaguely agreed it might have been due to some kind of thrmbosis in a main collateral, but really just wanted to get back to vivsecting baby ocelots or whatever vascular surgeons do to unwind.

So I kind of appreciate being a bit oncerned about exertion maybe increasing the risk of thrombosis, particularly given your vein clot experience. On the other hand, I've read a whole lot of studies and I don't recall any of them highlighting this kind of thing as an exertion risk, so - dunno! If you find out anything more on this, pls let me know.

(My problem resolved over a couple of months - continued to walk and my bod grew some new collaterals.)
 
There's an on-going RCT looking at the effects of GLP-1RA semaglutide (ie Ozempic) on symptomatic PAD, expected to publish results in 2024.

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really just wanted to get back to vivsecting baby ocelots or whatever vascular surgeons do to unwind.
This made me cackle out loud!!!!
The advice I’ve gotten is mainly that I’m unlucky, I’ve been put on apixaban and others meds and was told the best thing for me was to walk. Regardless of the pain lol I was told I was too high risk for surgery now and they’d see me once a year! The clot was about the length of my hand on my thigh and they surmise it’s smaller now but don’t want to scan me again because of the radiation (?) so I guess like yourself they’ve kinda washed their hands of me. I’ll certainly be asking about the ozemipic and exertion risks at my next checkup (which is due 95th of julemeber I think!)
 
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