Freestyle Libre 2

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lanibanani79

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Relationship to Diabetes
Type 2
Hi all

On day 2 with the Libre and thought I'd finger prick to see how it compares. Libre says 9.8 and finger prick was 7.3.

Is this normal?
 
Short answer is yes. It's not ideal but does occur.

Longer answer:
Readings from all of the medical equipment that we have, display with a decimal point but in reality aren't that accurate; their specification allows a fair amount of tolereance (+/- 15%) so it's better to round up or down in your mind the display to a whole number. So 9.8 is c.10 and 7.3 is c.7; this immediately apparently makes matters worse (it really isn't) - if Libre 9.8 was - -15% = 8.5 and fp at 7.3 + 15% = 9. No longer so far apart and the otherway round! So your "one-off" snapshots are just telling you that Libre is probably reading higher. You need a series of readings over a period to confirm the trend that when mid-range Libre = higher by 2-3 points.

If manufacturers could make this stuff to a greater accuracy it would cost a fortune and probably come in a suitcase or maybe a backpack!

For me, if Libre was broadly consistently greater than actual, regardless of whether displaying in the teens or the 4s, then I work with that knowing under that scenario Libre in the 4s is too low. Conversely if Libre is always lower than actual I can be relaxed(ish) about a period in the 4s. My body and Libre weren't great friends so might start high then end up constantly low after 14 days and I always struggled with that never knowing what was really happening - NUMERICALLY. The trend was manageable but the nos always needed verifying by fp and that was frustrating since it partially defeated the claims and expectations of less fps.

Libre is sampling the interstitial sub-cutaneous fluid whereas your fp is sampling actual blood. There is a lag of c.15 mins between actual and interstitial. CGM manufactures use algorithms to try and display the interstitial reading closer to BG using data from the recent samplings. Libre actually samples your interstitial every minute and displays a fresh reading every 5 minutes. If your BG trend was pretty level then over a 15 min interval the algorithm might be able to obtain a more refined reading and there could be a drift towards actual BG. BUT not so much if each instrument is a bit inaccurate anyway!

For me the most important use of CGM is getting a good sense of the trend of my BG - ie the display arrow, rather than getting too distracted by the number. UNLESS it is really low, when a corrective initial snack is often more important than checking a Libre reading of 4.2. That trend prediction is supported by the visual graph, which in itself is so helpful - even if we don't like the detail!

There are limitations to using CGM and in case you haven't already seen these I'm attaching a link here:

If you consistently are getting a differential of 3 points when in mid range then I would ask the Freestyle help desk to replace it - that is not very reasonable or helpful. They will probably ask you to return the sensor and provide materials + a pre-paid envelope. So don't immediately discard the failing sensor. I would continue with that failing sensor for as long as I could tolerate the frustration if I didn't already have a replacement handy.

But it's important to take account of what else is going on. Have you recently eaten and that potential glucose hasn't reached your blood yet or is there bolus insulin on board and arrived when your glucose hasn't? Both scenarios could mean rapid change of actual going on that Libre can't look into the future and anticipate. Or when we are hypo and take our response, say 3x JBs; that glucose arrives pretty quickly, actual BG recovers pretty quickly but Libre doesn't know that recovery is happening and still causing alarms and trying to panic you! Have you recently been particularly active (running around after children is deceptive activity) (as is hoovering) (and shopping) and could your BG be changing in response - which Libre is not yet aware of? Often the difference between Libre and actual is fleeting and you can even get different readings from which the displayed Libre number does not end up on the graph as the Libre algorithms smooth out odd readings.

CGM is truly helpful and remarkably sophisticated tech. But like the speedo and fuel guage on my car dashboard they can just go badly wrong or always be a bit adrift and it needs me to manage those circumstances. There's lots more in this forum about CGM and Libre in particular. Even though I've had to change from Libre to Dexcom there are masses of people who find it brilliant and either rarely fp so don't know its adrift or are perfectly happy to ignore the apparent disparity. Hope this helps a bit!
 
When did you do the comparison? ie How long after breakfast or was it before breakfast?

If it was within a couple of hours after breakfast, then it is likely that Libre has overexaggerated the rise from breakfast. It does this due to the algorithm which attempts to reduce the lag between interstitial fluid which it reads and blood glucose, so if your levels have been rising quite fast but then start to reach the peak or come down, the Libre will read higher than you actually are and if your levels are dropping fast but perhaps starting to level off then Libre will read lower.
The Libre graph will usually smooth out these over predictions of highs and lows so you might see a dot on your graph that the graph line doesn't quite go through.

I try to only do comparisons between Libre and a finger prick when my levels have been stable within a couple of decimal places for at least half an hour on the Libre and ideally mid range in the 5s or 6s and I haven't eaten anything in that time to cause a change. That gives me the truest assessment of how my Libre is doing compared to a finger prick.
Plus you also have to remember that neither instrument is totally accurate so your meter might be reading a bit low and your Libre a bit high.

If your levels are nice and stable mid range and your Libre is more than 2mmols out on 3 separate occasions then document those readings and contact Abbott and they will usually replace, but may want the sensor sending back, so don't bin it. They will send suitable P&P for it's return with it's replacement if they want to back.
 
When did you do the comparison? ie How long after breakfast or was it before breakfast?

If it was within a couple of hours after breakfast, then it is likely that Libre has overexaggerated the rise from breakfast. It does this due to the algorithm which attempts to reduce the lag between interstitial fluid which it reads and blood glucose, so if your levels have been rising quite fast but then start to reach the peak or come down, the Libre will read higher than you actually are and if your levels are dropping fast but perhaps starting to level off then Libre will read lower.
The Libre graph will usually smooth out these over predictions of highs and lows so you might see a dot on your graph that the graph line doesn't quite go through.

I try to only do comparisons between Libre and a finger prick when my levels have been stable within a couple of decimal places for at least half an hour on the Libre and ideally mid range in the 5s or 6s and I haven't eaten anything in that time to cause a change. That gives me the truest assessment of how my Libre is doing compared to a finger prick.
Plus you also have to remember that neither instrument is totally accurate so your meter might be reading a bit low and your Libre a bit high.

If your levels are nice and stable mid range and your Libre is more than 2mmols out on 3 separate occasions then document those readings and contact Abbott and they will usually replace, but may want the sensor sending back, so don't bin it. They will send suitable P&P for it's return with it's replacement if they want to back.
I did it about half hour after getting up. I hadn't had breakfast or insulin yet and noticed the readings on the app were going up so tested.
 
Ok, so that will be Dawn Phenomenon/Foot on the Floor syndrome causing your levels to rise. This is down to the liver releasing glucose to give us energy for the day ahead. I always inject 1.5-2units of units of bolus insulin to deal with this rise before I set foot out of bed, because otherwise my levels will rise by 4-6 mmols before I get breakfast, so that insulin knocks it on the head before it gets away on me. Some people find that this rise starts around 3am but thankfully for me, my liver waits until I swing my legs out of bed and stand up, so if I inject my insulin before I do that, it has a fighting chance of keeping things stable whilst I get up and get dressed and get breakfast. Depending upon the type of insulin you have you may not be able to do this, but even if you are on a mixed insulin, injecting your morning dose before you get out of bed should stop or at least slow this rise. Unless of course you intend to go out for a walk or run before breakfast, in which case that would probably be a bad idea. I need to prebolus my breakfast insulin quite a long time before I eat breakfast, so injecting before I get out of bed gives me time to get washed and dressed and a coffee before I eat my breakfast. This works for me but you may be different and need to carefully experiment with the timing for your insulin to see what works for you. Even if I am not having breakfast, I still need that 1.5-2 units of bolus insulin to deal with "Foot on the Floor" otherwise I will be up in double figures by lunchtime. As I say, you may be different. If you want to experiment to see what works for you, try just 1 unit before you get out of bed and keep a close eye on your levels and fast acting carbs close to hand in case you drop too quickly. My morning liver dump is very consistent so this works very well for me. If I wake up in the 4s or low 5s I only need 1.5 units, any higher and I need 2units.
 
About what I would expect, no big deal
 
Following on from @rebrascora's response, #6 above: If DP or FOTF was hitting hard then I'd expect the fp actual to rise faster than Libre - which doesn't yet know it has to predict that rise. The gap between fp and Libre would be closer or I must conclude Libre is even further adrift. So right now I'm taking this topic into detailed analysis of "what and why", which is stressful and just adding to the hassle of daily management of D, so I suggest that observation and move on.

@Ianabanani79 a tiny bit of caution here - we can overthink these things. The NHS have provided you with Libre so that your lifestyle can be improved as well as your D management and we ought to be able to help you feel comfortable with whatever Libre is telling you and then make the best use out of that data Libre is giving you. I imagine with a family of 3 teenagers there is enough going on in your world on a daily basis for you to want minimal time lost to managing D!

So I suggest ONLY fp when Libre tells you that you are very low (4 or under) or above 12 - yes above the acknowledged threshold of 10 for high. Modest periods above 10 are normal for non Ds and not particularly harmful to us; some people are sufficiently sensitive to an elevated BG and that leaves them feeling sluggish or at least different. But I think from your history you've previously had lots of time much higher and you haven't mentioned that it makes feel poorly or slowed down - so I think an hour or even 3 around 12 won't bother you.

With that start point of only fp for below 4 or above 12 relax and just trust your Libre readings for bolus doses and corrections (BG adjustments).

Alarms should be alerts.
Set the LOW Libre alert at its highest setting of 5.6 - not 4, which is too late since you are potentially and imminently going to go hypo and will be forced to stop whatever you are doing and treat that hypo.
Set the HIGH Libre alert at 11.9.
Then, strictly you just get alerts not alarms.

Trust these so you don't feel you must constantly check what Libre is saying. When I had the LibreLink app on my android phone I had to wake my phone up to get a reading, which further added to the hassle of D management.

When that 5.6 alert comes, open the app and FIRST look at the trend arrow. If that is level / horizontal then whatever change that is occurring is slow and steady, so no need to panic or even slightly overreact - just make a timely response. But its essential to monitor in case the trend turns downwards. I normally wait 10-20 mins and see where Libre is going then, if still level, have a biscuit or a frothy coffee and either of those contain enough carbs to nudge my BG back up a bit - it's not instant. Half a cereal bar, a small apple or some other preferred snack will also do - just not pure dairy with no carbs. Trial and learning will identify what works for you and is easy; we all respond differently. From this strategy you ought to be able to avoid any hypos monitoring a downward trend and increasing the snack a little (its a delicate balance to resist overreacting and then swinging up to too high; again trial and learning - unless you are really unlucky and you have abnormal and greater insulin sensitivity when low. But if you are truly T2 I think that would be most unlikely.

When high, ie above 12, either increase moderate activity (which for most of us can steadily bring about a lowering of BG), or apply a correction dose of your quick acting bolus insulin. At this stage don't try to further refine matters and start correcting because you could be going up; that level of management will come pretty naturally once you-'ve got the basics right. Have you been advised about when and what amount for bolus corrections? Are you familiar with the idea of insulin stacking and insulin on board (iob)? I'm not sure how much you already know or what courses or learning modules you have previously encountered.

Without wanting to get too tangled up in your business, have you been able to establish if you are actually T1? In England that T1 tag places us [I'm T3c, but as if T1] firmly under the more specialist Hospital D teams and ensures we have CGM. But you already do have Libre; are you under a Diabetes Specialist Team or Nurse (DSN)?

The other thing is that T2 revolves around the principle that one's natural insulin production is there, but the body is resisting that insulin. Whereas T1 is firmly about seriously declining or non-existent insulin production. From that there are consequent differences in general metabolism and how our bodies are behaving and I think that can also cascade onto interpretation of BG responses and timings (not certain about the last aspect).

Also even though I'm suggesting minimal fps, has your fp technique settled down or are you still finding them very painful? 'Cos they shouldn't be and there may be other things we can tell you to help that.

Are you still on fixed doses of basal (Abasglar) and rapid or quicker acting (Humalog) insulins? Are you now carb counting?

Sorry to bombard you with questions, but unless there is a significant medical breakthrough in the future - managing your D is with you for the foreseeable future. No hurry or necessity to reply if you don't want to.
 
On day 2 with the Libre and thought I'd finger prick to see how it compares. Libre says 9.8 and finger prick was 7.3.

There was a helpful post here about some things to bear in mind between sensor glucose and fingerstick glucose

 
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