Experimenting with the Libre 2

[susan-k-s]

As some of you know, I'm experimenting with a Libre 2 to find triggers for my BG spikes. Below is yesterday's graph with a photo of the culprit. Who would have thought a tiny bowl of "healthy" "no added sugar" cereal first thing in the morning will spike me over 7, while a substantial heavy carb evening meal (taken with apple cider vinegar!) will result in a much smaller rise?

The cereal spiked very quickly and made me hungry within an hour - you can see how I then crashed under the baseline well within two hours. My subsequent midday meal was several pancakes (made with oats/coconut flour/flax seeds to substitute wheat flour) followed by a long walk and some nuts consumed on the way. This gave me a much smaller rise and I did not feel hungry for several hours until dinner.

I don't normally eat this many carbs in a day - but this only shows that it's not necessarily about the carbs! My pancakes will have contained more carbs than the raisin wheats - yet I managed to avoid the spike with the exercise and the impact of the evening meal was offset by the ACV!

This morning I had the same amount of cereal but consumed some ACV beforehand - I still got a spike but much lower at just over 6. If I had gone for a walk straight after eating, I bet it wouldn't have spiked at all!

A follow-up I posted further down:
Thank you to those who have replied to my post. I know these levels are considered normal - however, normal is not necessarily optimal. Frequent spikes, especially when crashing below the baseline, are not ideal. I was just trying to illustrate how a seemingly innocent food item that's considered healthy can cause problems in the wrong context - ie. first thing in the morning on an empty stomach.

Glycemic Variability (GV) is something that I keep seeing on the internet - you want to keep that as low as possible regardless of the absolute BG levels. In non-diabetics, GV should be under 1.7 - so if the baseline is 4, the spike should not be higher than 5.7 - similarly, if your baseline is 5, the spike should not be higher 6.7, etc.

Here's an excerpt from an article: " Frequent spikes and the subsequent insulin surges can cause health problems over time, including insulin resistance. Blood sugar crashes can cause more immediate effects like fatigue, depression, and anxiety. But variability itself has negative consequences as well over the long term. Studies show that these big spikes and dips in glucose can damage tissues more than elevated but stable glucose levels. Extreme glucose variability has been linked to heart disease, diabetes, and metabolic dysfunction."
https://www.levelshealth.com/blog/what-is-glycemic-variability-and-why-does-it-matter

 

[Inka]

@susan-k-s Going up to 7 isn’t a spike. Non-diabetics commonly go up to the 8s after food, and occasionally up to the 10s. What your graph shows looks totally normal. The 4 was normal too.

 

[Bruce Stephens]

Who would have thought a tiny bowl of "healthy" "no added sugar" cereal first thing in the morning will spike me over 7, while a substantial heavy carb evening meal (taken with apple cider vinegar!) will result in a much lower spike?

I don't find it surprising. That all looks like a completely normal graph to me: it's normal for BG to vary, and as I understand it 7 is far from unusual in people without diabetes.

Why the difference between morning and evening eating? The response probably just varies over the day.

I certainly wouldn't regard that as a warning that you should never eat breakfast cereal again. By all means eat something else at breakfast if you want (or just have a cup of tea) but don't change just because of this graph.

 

[Saoirse]

To be clear. 7 is not a ‘spike’. It is a perfectly normal response to a meal like the one you had. Readings of 8 9 or even 10 would be normal too, so long as they come down swiftly as your graph does.

 

[Inka]

Just to add - when I got my insulin pump, I was shown a graph of a non-diabetic person. This displayed their meals and their blood sugar over 24 hours.There was also a graph with their insulin response/production. I was shown these so I could see what was normal in someone without diabetes, and the idea was my pump would help me try to mimic that, as near as possible in the circumstances.

@susan-k-s I can assure you the graph I saw had more ‘spikes’ than yours. They are not spikes, they are normal post-meal rises. That’s what blood glucose is supposed to do: go up and down within the normal range. Yours does that, and, in fact, rises less than many non-diabetic people’s. Your graph is normal.

If you feel you’re more sensitive to the normal rise and fall of blood sugar, then just eat low or medium GI foods. I do wonder whether your anxiety about this is the problem. Just eat normally and if you need snacks between meals or before exercise as some people do, just have them.

 

[rebrascora]

Exercise will usually have an impact for much longer than you are actually doing it. In fact up to 48 hours afterwards, so your walk may well still be affecting your evening levels rather than attributing it to the ACV. Exercise will consistently reduce my BG during the night and the following morning for instance and to a lesser extent the next night.... I know because I have to decrease my basal insulin or I hypo.

The rise at breakfast time may partly just be to the time of day as our liver also releases glucose before we eat to give us energy for the day (Dawn Phenomenon and Foot on the Floor syndrome) so that may well also be contributing to your levels rising at breakfast time. Raisins are really quite high in sugar, so don't fall into the trap of thinking products which are low or no added sugar are necessarily any better. I am not saying there is anything wrong with this product and from your graph it is absolutely fine for you to eat it, but many people think that diabetes is all about added sugar and it isn't.

Also do not draw any conclusions from one set of tests. There are at least 42 factors which impact BG levels, so you are looking for trends over several days of the same food, rather than one test, change something and test again and assume that change made a difference. BG levels are much more complex than that and it is repeated similar results which give you a more clear picture of what is going on.

 

[harbottle]

You don't understand what you are doing, and you are more than likely going to alarm some people here who do have diabetes and may start getting worried if they see values over 7 after a meal. This is all perfectly normal. I wish people would stop using the word 'spike' without having a clue what they are talking about.

 

[helli]

Exercise will usually have an impact for much longer than you are actually doing it.

... if you have diabetes.
If you do not have diabetes, the impact of exercise will be much less because your body will have the ability to turn basal insulin on and off.

The liver dump of dawn phenomenon occurs for most people but only those of us with diabetes will notice it becaue our pancreas cannot react to the liver dump.

Likewise, the 42 factors that affect BG levels - these are for people with diabetes.

 

[susan-k-s]

Thank you to those who have replied to my post. I know these levels are considered normal - however, normal is not necessarily optimal. Frequent spikes, especially when crashing below the baseline, are not ideal. I was just trying to illustrate how a seemingly innocent food item that's considered healthy can cause problems in the wrong context - ie. first thing in the morning on an empty stomach.

Glycemic Variability (GV) is something that I keep seeing on the internet - you want to keep that as low as possible regardless of the absolute BG levels. In non-diabetics, GV should be under 1.7 - so if the baseline is 4, the spike should not be higher than 5.7 - similarly, if your baseline is 5, the spike should not be higher 6.7, etc.

Here's an excerpt from an article: " Frequent spikes and the subsequent insulin surges can cause health problems over time, including insulin resistance. Blood sugar crashes can cause more immediate effects like fatigue, depression, and anxiety. But variability itself has negative consequences as well over the long term. Studies show that these big spikes and dips in glucose can damage tissues more than elevated but stable glucose levels. Extreme glucose variability has been linked to heart disease, diabetes, and metabolic dysfunction."
https://www.levelshealth.com/blog/what-is-glycemic-variability-and-why-does-it-matter

 

[susan-k-s]

You don't understand what you are doing, and you are more than likely going to alarm some people here who do have diabetes and may start getting worried if they see values over 7 after a meal. This is all perfectly normal. I wish people would stop using the word 'spike' without having a clue what they are talking about.

That's certainly wasn't my intention, I'm sorry. But I think there's a lot we can do to influence BG levels if we have the right information. There should be a lot more emphasis on prevention. Everyone's at risk of diabetes especially as we get older and I don't think we're getting the right information from health professionals. Frequent spikes and crashes are not a good idea whether you have diabetes or not.

 

[Saoirse]

Thank you to those who have replied to my post. I know these levels are considered normal - however, normal is not necessarily optimal. Frequent spikes, especially when crashing below the baseline, are not ideal. I was just trying to illustrate how a seemingly innocent food item that's considered healthy can cause problems in the wrong context - ie. first thing in the morning on an empty stomach.

Glycemic Variability (GV) is something that I keep seeing on the internet - you want to keep that as low as possible regardless of the absolute BG levels. In non-diabetics, GV should be under 1.7 - so if the baseline is 4, the spike should not be higher than 5.7 - similarly, if your baseline is 5, the spike should not be higher 6.7, etc.

Here's an excerpt from an article: " Frequent spikes and the subsequent insulin surges can cause health problems over time, including insulin resistance. Blood sugar crashes can cause more immediate effects like fatigue, depression, and anxiety. But variability itself has negative consequences as well over the long term. Studies show that these big spikes and dips in glucose can damage tissues more than elevated but stable glucose levels. Extreme glucose variability has been linked to heart disease, diabetes, and metabolic dysfunction."
https://www.levelshealth.com/blog/what-is-glycemic-variability-and-why-does-it-matter

They are not ‘spikes’ You are not experiencing ‘crashes’.Nothing you have said suggests you have anything other than a normal response to food and the website you have shared is for a company who want to sell you stuff.

 

[Bruce Stephens]

I know these levels are considered normal - however, normal is not necessarily optimal.

True, but I'm not sure we know what's optimal.

Frequent spikes, especially when crashing below the baseline, are not ideal.

I wouldn't be so sure. Suppose you were really careful and managed to keep your BG between 5 and 6 (I'm assuming the Libre sensors are actually that accurate which isn't likely) for some extended period. I can imagine that might have its own issues: it seems plausible there are processes in the body that would be messed up with such a limited range in BG.

(I accept it's also possible that such a limited (and abnormal) range would be fine and would be better than normal.)

 

[helli]

@susan-k-s if Glycaemic Variability was the only thing we ever had to worry about in life, maybe the optimum you mention would be great.
However, when we talk about diabetes, we try to talk about "managing" our condition rather than "controlling" it. This is because there is much much more that goes on in our lives and our bodies that it is not healthy mentally to focus only on one area. I consider it far more important to have good diabetes management and a full life than perfect diabetes management with anxiety and inability to enjoy life.

I know nothing about optimal Glycaemic Variability and don't want to - it is not possible to maintain the variation you mention whilst balancing my life. And Balance is a very important thing for my total health.

 

[Bruce Stephens]

Extreme glucose variability has been linked to

But what you're seeing isn't extreme, it's normal.

 

[Saoirse]

That's certainly wasn't my intention, I'm sorry. But I think there's a lot we can do to influence BG levels if we have the right information. There should be a lot more emphasis on prevention. Everyone's at risk of diabetes especially as we get older and I don't think we're getting the right information from health professionals. Frequent spikes and crashes are not a good idea whether you have diabetes or not.

This is not true. Everyone is not at risk of diabetes in any correct sense of risk. The vast majority of people in the world have a normal functioning pancreas and absent specific risk factors or bad luck will continue so throughout their lives. People’s blood glucose rises and falls throughout the day. It is meant to do so.

 

[42istheanswer]

Glycemic Variability (GV) is something that I keep seeing on the internet - you want to keep that as low as possible regardless of the absolute BG levels. In non-diabetics, GV should be under 1.7 - so if the baseline is 4, the spike should not be higher than 5.7 - similarly, if your baseline is 5, the spike should not be higher 6.7, etc.

I think you are misinterpreting GV. On MySugr when it tells me the variability, that is to do with the variability from the average blood glucose of the day. So if your fasting blood glucose is 4, and your 2 hour post meal glucose is 7, then your average BG is 5.5 and the variability is 1.5.

 

[Inka]

Thank you to those who have replied to my post. I know these levels are considered normal - however, normal is not necessarily optimal. Frequent spikes, especially when crashing below the baseline, are not ideal. I was just trying to illustrate how a seemingly innocent food item that's considered healthy can cause problems in the wrong context - ie. first thing in the morning on an empty stomach.

Glycemic Variability (GV) is something that I keep seeing on the internet - you want to keep that as low as possible regardless of the absolute BG levels. In non-diabetics, GV should be under 1.7 - so if the baseline is 4, the spike should not be higher than 5.7 - similarly, if your baseline is 5, the spike should not be higher 6.7, etc.

Here's an excerpt from an article: " Frequent spikes and the subsequent insulin surges can cause health problems over time, including insulin resistance. Blood sugar crashes can cause more immediate effects like fatigue, depression, and anxiety. But variability itself has negative consequences as well over the long term. Studies show that these big spikes and dips in glucose can damage tissues more than elevated but stable glucose levels. Extreme glucose variability has been linked to heart disease, diabetes, and metabolic dysfunction."
https://www.levelshealth.com/blog/what-is-glycemic-variability-and-why-does-it-matter

And I can find you numerous websites telling you that there are nano transmitters inside the Covid vaccinations….That website is scaremongering and hooking people in.

You’ve been told you don’t have spikes and crashes yet you keep on saying you do. To give you some idea, when I was diagnosed my blood sugar was around 30 (yes, 30). 7 is a normal blood sugar! Being 4 then 7, or 7 then 4 is normal. It shows your insulin response is normal.

Does your heartrate go up when you exercise? Of course it does - because it’s supposed to. It then reduces when you stop exercising. Someone having that normal response but then going on a heart conditions website to claim they have tachycardia and brachycardia is a good analogy. There’s nothing wrong at all with your blood sugar. You’re pathologising normal body responses.

 

[JohnnyRam]

And I can find you numerous websites telling you that there are nano transmitters inside the Covid vaccinations….That website is scaremongering and hooking people in.

You’ve been told you don’t have spikes and crashes yet you keep on saying you do. To give you some idea, when I was diagnosed my blood sugar was around 30 (yes, 30). 7 is a normal blood sugar! Being 4 then 7, or 7 then 4 is normal. It shows your insulin response is normal.

Does your heartrate go up when you exercise? Of course it does - because it’s supposed to. It then reduces when you stop exercising. Someone having that normal response but then going on a heart conditions website to claim they have tachycardia and brachycardia is a good analogy. There’s nothing wrong at all with your blood sugar. You’re pathologising normal body responses.

Reading this thread I really can't help wishing I could limit spikes to 7....

 

[susan-k-s]

@susan-k-s if Glycaemic Variability was the only thing we ever had to worry about in life, maybe the optimum you mention would be great.
However, when we talk about diabetes, we try to talk about "managing" our condition rather than "controlling" it. This is because there is much much more that goes on in our lives and our bodies that it is not healthy mentally to focus only on one area. I consider it far more important to have good diabetes management and a full life than perfect diabetes management with anxiety and inability to enjoy life.

I know nothing about optimal Glycaemic Variability and don't want to - it is not possible to maintain the variation you mention whilst balancing my life. And Balance is a very important thing for my total health.

I agree with everything you said. However, if there are some simple tricks that I can use to minimise my risk of developing diabetes, like not eating naked carbs on an empty stomach - then I'm willing to make those changes. I used to think a little bit is ok (a biscuit here, a cracker there) but if there's anything the last few days have shown me is that the quantity doesn't actually matter that much! I can still eat everything I want, but I have to be careful when I eat it and in what combination/order with other foods. Of course, I'm not going to monitor my levels all the time - I'm just doing it for these two weeks and try to learn some lessons.

 

[susan-k-s]

And I can find you numerous websites telling you that there are nano transmitters inside the Covid vaccinations….That website is scaremongering and hooking people in.

You’ve been told you don’t have spikes and crashes yet you keep on saying you do. To give you some idea, when I was diagnosed my blood sugar was around 30 (yes, 30). 7 is a normal blood sugar! Being 4 then 7, or 7 then 4 is normal. It shows your insulin response is normal.

Does your heartrate go up when you exercise? Of course it does - because it’s supposed to. It then reduces when you stop exercising. Someone having that normal response but then going on a heart conditions website to claim they have tachycardia and brachycardia is a good analogy. There’s nothing wrong at all with your blood sugar. You’re pathologising normal body responses.

OK, I get your point. However, you can't argue with the fact that diabetes is on the rise. It has doubled in the last 15 years. And all those people had previously "normal" sugar responses. Perhaps what they tell you is normal is far from it. My source did say that variation matters more than actual levels. The fact that my BG shoots up and then crashes below the starting point within 90 minutes is not a normal response even though it is within "normal" levels. Knowing this will help me avoid those situations.