Confused again.

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Charl

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Relationship to Diabetes
Type 1
Reading before tea (1700) was 7.9
Carb counted Novorapid,
Reading 4 hrs later was 3.4
Had oatmeal type biscuit 27g carbs,
1hr later Reading was 4.9
Off to bed, woke at 1.30am didnt feel right, took reading it had dropped to 2.6, sure carb count was correct, any suggestions. Thanks
 
Any exercise in the couple of days before this?
 
Hi. Firstly 3.4 is a hypo so you should be having 15g fast acting carbs like dextrose tablets or Jelly Babies or a small can of full sugar cola, not an oatmeal biscuit which is slow release? You should then be testing 15 mins later and looking to be back up above 4 after eating your fast acting carbs. not checking an hour later. This is called the 15 rule for hypos.... 15g carbs (3 jelly babies or about 5 Dextrose tablets) and test 15 mins later. If your levels are not up above 4 then you have another 15g fast acting carbs ie JBs or dextrose and test again in 15 mins. You might then want to have 10g of slower acting carbs once your levels are up above 4. This would be a plain digestive or half a slice of bread with some peanut butter. Being consistent and disciplined about treating hypos is important to stop your levels going into roller coaster mode. The fast acting carbs are important to bring your levels up quickly because the longer you are below 4 the more chance there is of your hypo awareness being eroded, but also because if your levels are dropping fast, the slower release carbs from oats may not act quickly enough to bring you back up before you lose consciousness.

As regards why it happened. Can you be sure you didn't miscalculate the carbs? What was your pre meal reading? Had you done more exercise that day or even the previous day..... even just some gardening can have quite a dramatic effect on lowering levels particularly if you inject the usual amount of fast acting insulin.
 
Hope my post didn't come across as critical. Unfortunately some people are not given this important information aboiut treating hypos when they are started on insulin and others may be told but it goes in one ear and out of the other..... goodness knows there is plenty of info thrown at you when first diagnosed, that much of it doesn't stick.
I was told to always carry dextrose tablets but nothing was said about how many from what I can remember and I just assumed I would take one to treat a hypo. It wasn't until I saw the dietician several weeks later that I found out that I should take several (she said 6 although that is probably slight overkill), and not until someone here an the forum mentioned it that I actually found out about the "Rule of 15" and that JB are probably just as effective as dextrose, probably a bit cheaper and more importantly, more readily available in shops.I have played around with other options, but for me I have got into a mentality of JBs being medicine to treat hypos, so I am not tempted to eat them at other times and I have them packaged into hypo treatments of 3 or more usually 2 for me these days as my hypos are generally very mild, so that I am not tempted to grab a handful when hypo hunger hits me. If you are considering other sweets the important thing is to avoid things with a high fat content like chocolate or toffee. It is also helpful to know that chewing your hypo treatment really well will actually cause it to be absorbed quicker than a couple of chews and swallowing it, because the cells inside your cheek walls will absorb the glucose fastest and deliver it to your brain quicker than your stomach. Isn't the human body clever!!
 
There are many things that affect our blood sugars beyond what we eat. It may be useful to review the 42 Factors that Affect Blood Glucose.
Things like weather and sleep patterns can affect our levels. I notice it has been noticeably warmer recently.

Plus,
- are you sure your basal insulin dose is correct? If your basal is too high during the night, your levels will fall
- is the night time low from a Libre? I ask because it culd be a compression low - false reading from the sensor due to pressure being applied when you lie on it.
 
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Hope my post didn't come across as critical. Unfortunately some people are not given this important information aboiut treating hypos when they are started on insulin and others may be told but it goes in one ear and out of the other..... goodness knows there is plenty of info thrown at you when first diagnosed, that much of it doesn't stick.
One other small but essential point that wasn't explained to me in the early days and I've not seen written in formal hypo response advice:

Its important to resist eating anything more while actually treating a hypo, particularly lower GI foods such as biscuits. The lower GI content dilutes or blunts the effectiveness of the rapid GI dextrose/JB or similar - so the 15 minute speedy recovery is delayed. AND of course you now have extra carbs on board which will eventually reach your BG and this often can be the explanation for the consequent "roller-coaster" effect
It is also helpful to know that chewing your hypo treatment really well will actually cause it to be absorbed quicker than a couple of chews and swallowing it, because the cells inside your cheek walls will absorb the glucose fastest and deliver it to your brain quicker than your stomach. Isn't the human body clever!!
I can confirm the chewing and cheek wall absorption scenario works for me. Having no pancreas at all, I get my fastest hypo recovery by not swallowing - albeit its surprisingly difficult to resist the panic and not swallow! The same goes for a high glucose drink - if possible hold a mouthful for a short while, before slurping some more. Once swallowed my high GI response has to take its chance in my stomach, without much digestive enzymes help. I certainly don't take a Creon capsule at these times of minor panic.
 
Well yet another disturbed night, woke yesterday morning after my disturbed night to a reading of 9.2,
Took basal..20 ...carb count bolus and had breakfast 15 mins later,
Readings through day
6.30 am......9.2
10.00am....6.4 3x ryvita bit peanut butter
11.30am...7.0 carb count bolus
12.00am dinner, cheese sandwiches, cup a soup, apple
Never took another reading till 20 mlns before tea
18.45pm....5.9 carb count bolus
22.00 pm...8.3
Bed
Woken at 12.15am......2.4
Treated the hypo , woke this morning 6.15 am......10.2
My basal dose used to be 21 but my diabetic doctor suggested dropping it to 20 because i was finding my blood readings were low around the 4.30 pm mark, so new basal dosage is a week old today, going to try and get some type of appointment today but any advice would be much appreciated. Thanks
 
@Charl can I just check that you are confirming night time hypos with a finger prick.
It is important to confirm Libre hypo readings, especially at night when they may be compression lows - sensors report false low readings when pressure is applied to them such as when we lie on them in our sleep.
 
Finger prick, dont have a Libre, that is why i paid a visit to my diabetic doctor regarding getting a libre because of having hypos late afternoon whilst at work hence he advised dropping basal dose, regarding the libre he said i should qualify for one and that he would forward a letter to my DN regarding being issued with one, wont be holding my breath.
 
Which basal insulin are you using @Charl and what did you use to treat your hypo?
 
Tresiba
0.18am...2.4....carton orange...18g carbs
0.35am....3.4.....2 x dextro
0.45am...4.0...
Slice of bread and butter
Bed..
Thanks
 
Tresiba acts over a long time, so it’s good that you’ve waited to allow the new dose to settle in.

But those overnight hypos are really nasty, and if you are having them every night (and were seeing BG dips beforehand) it could be an indication that your basal is still a little on the high side?

Insulin needs can vary throughout the course of the year, and with various other factors (stress, level of activity, even ambient temperature!) so it’s not uncommon to need to tweak doses up a bit and down a bit every few months.
 
Sorry to hear you had another hypo.
I would suggest that your Tresiba is still too high and needs to be reduced further. This may mean that your ratios for meals will need to change which is a shame as it looks like your daytime results are good, but with Tresiba you need to adjust the dose to prevent night time hypos and then make up for any shortfall during the day with your mealtime insulin.
Or you could ask for a different basal insulin, Levemir which you can split into 2 doses, 1 morning and one at night. Then you can adjust the night time dose independent of the daytime one, so that you can balance your body's needs more closely. I love Levemir for this flexibility because I need so much more insulin during the day than at night (24u in the morning but just a few at night.... usually between 0 and 4units depending upon how active I have been over the last couple of days. If I was on Tresiba and adjusted it down to my night time needs I would be using industrial amounts of bolus insulin during the day to try to keep a lid on my levels and I would find it extremely frustrating. You may find the disparity in your bodies needs is not so significant and you can make Tresiba work for you by lowering the dose to keep your levels steady overnight and then increasing your meal time ratios to balance things during the day.

It occurs to me from the doses you mention that you may actually be a slow onset Type 1 and not Type 2. This "specialist doctor" who supports you with your diabetes, are they a consultant or just a GP with a special interest in diabetes?

If you are Type 1 then you should be under the care of a specialist clinic and you would be entitled to Freestyle Libre on prescription, without any ifs or buts. Have you ever been offered Type 1 testing.... GAD antibody and C-peptide tests?
 
Spoke to doctor 2day on phone, suggested to drop tresiba from 20 to 18, gonna see what happens then, onwards n upwards.

Hope it helps @Charl

Let us know how you get on 🙂
 
Regarding the reducing of my tresiba by 2 units, do things change in your diabetes for the need to lower background insulin considering it seems to have been working ok in the past. Thanks
 
Yes, basal insulin needs change much more frequently than people realize. Mine change most significantly due to exercise or stress. Obviously exercise lowers my BG levels and reduces my basal insulin needs for up to 48 hours afterwards, particularly during the night for me but we are all different. Stress pushes my BG levels up and I need more basal insulin. Likewise with illness. The change of the seasons also has an impact on many people's basal needs and the heat in summer compared to the coolness in winter.
 
Sorry, at risk of causing great confusion for you @Charl, I must put in some words of caution to what @rebrascora is saying.
Yes, basal insulin needs change much more frequently than people realize.
Basal (= background) needs do change a certain amount over the year. Warm weather, usually means you need less background insulin; your body's warmth seems to result in decreased resistance to any insulin and so It goes a bit further (or doesn't need to work so hard). BUT Tresiba is a longer lasting insulin, with its 40 hr profile and along with understanding that today's dose is adding to yesterdays dose it is not intended that you adjust your Tresiba frequently: certainly not daily; a change in Tresiba can take 3 days to bring about the adjustment being sought.

Probably not even weekly changes (unless you know something well in advance that might make a change appropriate). Perhaps a 1 week beach holiday, with a specific intent to do very little, when you would normally be busy with daily living.

But generally the only Tresiba (basal) changes are in response to recognising that your daily background trend is not level. E.g. you might consistently be highish as you go to bed and regularly drift downwards (even go towards or into hypo) through the night showing that your basal (background) need is less than you are actually providing. This example is all about getting your background insulin correct.
Mine change most significantly due to exercise or stress.
Where I disagree with @rebrascora and thus risk causing you, @Charl, great confusion is I do not believe exercise or stress should be managed by your background (basal) insulin and certainly not by Tresiba.

If the exercise is pretty well a daily commitment, eg daily walking a dog, or walking to work 5 days a week, or even a solid gym workout 5 days a week - then that exercise is part of your background baseline and your Tresiba dose intended to keep you stable with such daily (or near daily) routines.

But if the exercise or activity is noticeably irregular then it is NOT part of your background need and must be managed by food and bolus (quicker acting) insulin. Not by Tresiba. Others may use their shorter profile basal insulins, such as Levermir, to 'switch on or off' according to how they interpret what they are doing or have done daily - but really they are just finding a solution that could be achieved by food, bolus and activity alone. Food, bolus and activity is the fundamental of how you, on Tresiba, should be aspiring to manage your D. Having Tresiba as a basal needs a different mindset to taking other basal insulins.

Stress is a different challenge for all of us. Stress, whether from an emotional response (eg a horror film, or bad news), a physochological circumstance, or a medical circumstance (a cold is developing and your body starts to fight it - often the day before you actually know that you have a cold!) - invariably leads to a raised BG. And that elevated BG needs managing. But I understand that long term (continuous) stress strangely doesn't result in long term elevated BG; somehow the body adjusts for this. But even if my understanding is wrong - long term elevated BG from continuous stress should become part of a basal requirement and so Tresiba would need to be adjusted to help manage that circumstance. But not for the frequent and relatively short term stress circumstances.

When I spent 3 weeks in hospital from emergency surgery I decided to increase my Tresiba by 10%, 1 unit; after 2 weeks I recognised my basal was a bit too much and I reduced it by a half unit, and in due course by a further half unit. When I had to spend 36 hrs in hospital for a planned surgical procedure I kept my Tresiba the same; I got a short term raised BG, which I just took a bolus correction dose for. Both hospital stays were surprisingly easily managed: I realised that one bonus was that I was in a very constrained environment; and I had time to commit much of my attention to just managing my BG; I was also being woken every 4 hours to have my vital stats recorded, so a small bolus correction was easily done, or a biscuit snack if I was a little low. I was not very active!
Obviously exercise lowers my BG levels and reduces my basal insulin needs for up to 48 hours afterwards, particularly during the night for me but we are all different.
We are all different, certainly. I simply don't see that the exercise is altering my "basal" needs. And because Tresiba can't and shouldn't be used to deal with BG changes from an activity or exercise that is not a daily background event - all such adjustment comes from either increased food to mitigate for that exercise, or reduced bolus insulin.

@rebrascora has an ultra low carb diet and so her bolus doses are relatively minimal; one can't significantly reduce a minimal dose to create a negative dose! So her basal insulin is one way of managing, if she doesn't want to increase her food intake.

I'm not saying that is wrong, but it is not feasible or appropriate to do with Tresiba; and I invariably eat at least 130gms of carbs daily, sometimes a fair bit more - so I have no difficulty with the idea of reducing my necessary bolus insulin for those carbs - or enjoying a snack, including a couple of squares of chocolate, when my BG is dropping because I've either had a busy day (or just got my balancing act a bit wrong!). What I do benefit from is Libre 2 providing me with an easy tracking of my BG.
Stress pushes my BG levels up and I need more basal insulin. Likewise with illness. The change of the seasons also has an impact on many people's basal needs and the heat in summer compared to the coolness in winter.
As I've already said I manage changes from stress, including illness, with my NovoRapid bolus and seasonal changes with my basal Tresiba

With Tresiba as our basal, we have 3 broad ways of managing our BG day by day:

Food, including supplementary snacks to lift BG;

Bolus insulin for the food PLUS extra bolus as a deliberate correction to lower any existing rise; I can make a decision to apply a further % adjustment (increase or decrease) to that initial total bolus for food and correction - when I know my day has been unusual (yesterday I took my son's dog for a huge walk in the sun in Gibraltar - an exceptional action). This further adjustment is something that comes with time, experience and the helpful overview from CGM.

Or I can and do use extra activity / exercise to nudge my BG down. In an evening, particularly, perhaps 10-15 mins after my dinner/supper I can 'nudge' my BG to reduce an anticipated spike from a generous meal by getting 'active', (rather than armchair TV) with c.15 mins on my feet doing any minor thing (could be just clearing the table, doing dishes or anything that keeps me moving around a bit). This minor activity invariably sets me up for the rest of the evening and I notice a difference if I don't do this.

I suggest you should be pushing to get Libre 2 prescribed for you, as an insulin dependent T2. Despite being one more thing to learn about, it should provide you with much better visibility of what is going on and with a great deal less effort Good luck; keep asking questions - we were all new to this once.
 
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