Carb or not to carb ?

[Bill Stewardson]

Now then,,, I'm fairly new to this D stuff, and as some of you may know Ive been quite annoyed by the advice given by the NHS re carbs.

So to that end Ive been contacting certain well placed people to gather some informed opinions, professors and senior clinicians etc.

Ive booted carbs completely into touch and more than halved my BG numbers in a month, which has made my meal times very boring.

Replies are starting to come in now, and communication will be ongoing. Not all of them have replied which is understandable as they have one or two other things to be getting on with.

I will post some of the stuff when a few more days pass or other stuff comes in.
All I ask is that nobody contacts any of the responders out of courtesy.

At the moment the main theme seems to suggest that axing Carbs (like I have) is the wrong thing to do.

I will keep you updated.

 

[Jeandp]

At the moment the main theme seems to suggest that axing Carbs (like I have) is the wrong thing to do.

I will keep you updated.

Really?!! Looking forward to seeing the advice they have given....

 

[Lucy Honeychurch]

Following because I'm nosey 😎

 

[Ditto]

This'll be interesting Bill.

 

[Amigo]

You need to contact some free thinkers Bill. Many people follow conventional wisdom because they're paid by the purveyors of the conventional wisdom.

It's interesting that the NHS cannot acknowledge success in the form of low carbing from patients and I struggle to know what their objection is. The issue to me is keeping the carbs complex and avoiding the simple, unnecessary ones. They're not all created equal.

The responses are eagerly awaited 😱

 

[Ditto]

They'd have to change the whole thing, the whole food table shenanigans, it would cause mayhem. What would they do with all the cereals and stuff? The economy might go into melt down! No admitting that carbs are bad or else! 🙂

 

[Dollypolly]

Oh this could be interesting for sure.plus can I ask why are your meals now boring.

 

[Radders]

Oh this could be interesting for sure.plus can I ask why are your meals now boring.

I agree with this. When people ask me about my eating habits I always say that I have cut out the boring bits!

 

[Wirrallass]

Hi Bill. You say you have axed carbohydrates from your diet. Is this wise?Carbohydrates are the body's main fuel source - the brain & nervous system require a constant supply of glucose from carbohydrates in order to function optimally.

Muscles use a store of glucose to provide the main fuel during physical exercise. Although muscles can use use fatty acids and amino acids when carb energy is lacking - the brain can't. Brain cells can't store energy, yet require double the amount of the other cells in the body. As a result - a diet that is severely limited in carbs can slow down the processing of auditory and visual information - delay thinking and compromise long-term memory. A severely limited low-carb diet can provide as little as 13% of that.

Following a no-carb diet for more than one or two days can create constipation - diarrhea - rashes - halitosis - muscle cramps and general weakness. It will definitely cause ketosis which increases protein and muscle breakdown plus water and Sodium loss - and can lead to dehydration.

These are precisely some of the reasons why a lot of us here have chosen to follow the LCHF dietary regime - we reduce the amount of carbohydrates we consume but NOT cut them out of our diets completely.

Why not re-consider axing your carbs and settle for a low carb diet instead - this doesn't mean that your meals need be boring. Take a look in the Thread *What did you eat yesterday?* for meal suggestions - you'll be surprised to see what varied & tasty meals we eat. Good luck.
WL

Source of Information:-
healthyeating.sfgate.com.sfgate.com/negative-results-eating-carbs-4182.html

 

[Ditto]

I think he means he's cutting out the simple carbs which are rubbish like cakes, but is still having the complex carbs like veg and stuff that are good for us. 🙂

 

[Dollypolly]

See I made the mistake of going to low in the beginning and it isn't sustainable well for me it isn't.
So can you please tell us what you are eating daily.
I'm assuming your eat less than 20% carbs

 

[trophywench]

In truth our bodies will function perfectly well if they never see another gram of carbohydrate in their lives.

How?

Because the body can also make the glucose it needs from protein and fat. Ergo if we eat enough protein and fat to supply the need, we don't need anything else.

Utterly boring diet though - half a pound of cheese but no tomato or other salad to help it down for lunch. Meat and no vegetables for dinner! No fruit ever either ....

So really it would be impossible to cut them out altogether so it's as broad as it is long - cut out the sweet and/or starchy c**p and enjoy the nice sort!

 

[Robin]

Totally agree with Jenny. The body doesn't need carb to manufacture glucose. (I know that if I have eggs for breakfast, I need insulin later in the morning to cover the glucose my body has made from the protein.)
Some people who follow ultra low carb diets complain of 'Keto flu' as their bodies adapt, but once the body is used to it,(Keto adapted, I think is the term they use) the brain gets on quite happily.
I'd never do it, though, too hard to make sure you're getting vitamins, minerals, fibre etc from what's left of your diet, and much too boring!

 

[Bill Stewardson]

See I made the mistake of going to low in the beginning and it isn't sustainable well for me it isn't.
So can you please tell us what you are eating daily.
I'm assuming your eat less than 20% carbs

What I did was get carbs to as near zero as was reasonably possible.
Lots of checking labels and rejecting carbs stuff.
My meals have been chicken, steaks, fish, and cheese with cauliflower and broccoli.
It has done the trick re vastly reducing my numbers, however I'm being provided with info that casts doubt on the long term benefits.
My mind remains open, and just to try and prove a point, I am now abandoning this and eating the way I did before my D was diagnosed for seven days, which was a good healthy diet anyway and always has been.
We shall see.

Hopefully this will prove interesting/helpful to Ds, especially newbys.

 

[Bill Stewardson]

Hi Bill. You say you have axed carbohydrates from your diet. Is this wise?Carbohydrates are the body's main fuel source - the brain & nervous system require a constant supply of glucose from carbohydrates in order to function optimally.

Muscles use a store of glucose to provide the main fuel during physical exercise. Although muscles can use use fatty acids and amino acids when carb energy is lacking - the brain can't. Brain cells can't store energy, yet require double the amount of the other cells in the body. As a result - a diet that is severely limited in carbs can slow down the processing of auditory and visual information - delay thinking and compromise long-term memory. A severely limited low-carb diet can provide as little as 13% of that.

Following a no-carb diet for more than one or two days can create constipation - diarrhea - rashes - halitosis - muscle cramps and general weakness. It will definitely cause ketosis which increases protein and muscle breakdown plus water and Sodium loss - and can lead to dehydration.

These are precisely some of the reasons why a lot of us here have chosen to follow the LCHF dietary regime - we reduce the amount of carbohydrates we consume but NOT cut them out of our diets completely.

Why not re-consider axing your carbs and settle for a low carb diet instead - this doesn't mean that your meals need be boring. Take a look in the Thread *What did you eat yesterday?* for meal suggestions - you'll be surprised to see what varied & tasty meals we eat. Good luck.
WL

Source of Information:-
healthyeating.sfgate.com.sfgate.com/negative-results-eating-carbs-4182.html

. Below is a response from a professor who does much work on D.

Hi Mr Stewardson

I do not think that cutting out carbohydrates is a good thing to do, in the long term. Having a balance of food types is most important.



You have not said whether you are referring to type 1 diabetes or type 2 diabetes. These are different, and the advice will also be different.



If you are referring to type 1 diabetes, the important thing about eating carbohydrates is that the amount of insulin taken is matched to to the carbohydrates, and getting the right ratio of this is very important. There are many places in the UK where people can attend the DAFNE course to learn how to really do this matching of insulin to carbohydrates is taught, and I would strongly recommend that everyone should at some stage do one of these courses. For type 2 diabetes, there are a number of different courses like Xpert and DESMOND that will also look at how best to learn about food balance.



A balance of food is important and having the carbohydrates is part of this. Getting all energy from fat will in the longer term cause problems with fat and cholesterol metabolism, and circulation. Having too much protein is an inefficient way of getting energy and, in the long term, will put strain on the kidneys. In addition, there are other types of nutrition gained from foods that have carbohydrate, and it is not only the carbohydrate content that is important.



The point about starch is that it is longer acting and having foods containing starch rather than a high content of refined sugar means that the carbohydrate is released over a longer period of time, rather than causing than blood glucose to rise rapidly, and therefore better to have this type of carbohydrate. Changing types of carbohydrate from highly refined carbohydrate to food with more starch means that the glucose should not rise so fast and can be better matched with the insulin, whether it comes from within the body or has to be given from the outside.



Good health and healthy eating is not simply about the blood sugar. Understanding all aspects of diet and health is important, and my experience of working with dietitians at a number of different hospitals is that they do not give bad advice and that consulting them early on is very important. More information could also be obtained from Diabetes UK.



Hope this helps.

Best wishes

 

[Bubbsie]

Be interested to hear the results...obviously the professor has never witnessed the DESMOND Course...I've been on one Bill...most awful load of nonsense I've ever heard...patronising...condescending...useless...bit like being in a Mike Leigh production...Gathering Nuts & May springs to mind.

 

[the blue wildebeest]

As someone who feels almost entirely without support from my NHS surgery, except when something is incontrovertibly wrong, I am about to undertake some experimentation both with diet and removal of medication (beginning with Statins, which were regarded as virtually compulsory when first prescribed, but without any review or discussion in years).

I have met one person only who appears not to have the dogmatic attitudes which seem so prevalent within the NHS, a dietitian who is aware of the radical changes and controversies continuing regarding dietary advice and information. Very properly, anyone without prejudice will not endorse any particular approach, which I think leaves me to conduct my own experimental regimen and decide whether or not it is a success.

At present my diet is decidedly low in carbohydrate, but does not eliminate it completely, and I have only once calculated the exact quantity for one day. I am not sure that it is necessary to do so continually. DP would appear to have become more frequent, possibly as a consequence, and as I am trying to maintain a stable weight without further loss, it is quite difficult to achieve satisfactory balance of nutrition without BGs above the levels I am aiming for.

I am not going to be asking for advice from the NHS personnel I have encountered of late, as I do not anticipate a useful response, and the absence of helpful information from that source just means that management and control are my responsibility alone. Although I would have preferred the support of a more informative and helpful NHS, it appears to me that the complexities of D and incomplete knowledge leave doctors, DSNs and other health care professionals without definitive information and little hope of being able to provide assistance except in the most general and conventional sense, sometimes retaining long outdated attitudes.

On one issue I am already disregarding the advice of a DSN who does not consider frequent testing of BGs necessary. I find it essential.

 

[Bill Stewardson]

As someone who feels almost entirely without support from my NHS surgery, except when something is incontrovertibly wrong, I am about to undertake some experimentation both with diet and removal of medication (beginning with Statins, which were regarded as virtually compulsory when first prescribed, but without any review or discussion in years).

I have met one person only who appears not to have the dogmatic attitudes which seem so prevalent within the NHS, a dietitian who is aware of the radical changes and controversies continuing regarding dietary advice and information. Very properly, anyone without prejudice will not endorse any particular approach, which I think leaves me to conduct my own experimental regimen and decide whether or not it is a success.

At present my diet is decidedly low in carbohydrate, but does not eliminate it completely, and I have only once calculated the exact quantity for one day. I am not sure that it is necessary to do so continually. DP would appear to have become more frequent, possibly as a consequence, and as I am trying to maintain a stable weight without further loss, it is quite difficult to achieve satisfactory balance of nutrition without BGs above the levels I am aiming for.

I am not going to be asking for advice from the NHS personnel I have encountered of late, as I do not anticipate a useful response, and the absence of helpful information from that source just means that management and control are my responsibility alone. Although I would have preferred the support of a more informative and helpful NHS, it appears to me that the complexities of D and incomplete knowledge leave doctors, DSNs and other health care professionals without definitive information and little hope of being able to provide assistance except in the most general and conventional sense, sometimes retaining long outdated attitudes.

On one issue I am already disregarding the advice of a DSN who does not consider frequent testing of BGs necessary. I find it essential.

Hello Blue.

Please think very carefully about meddling with any meds, I can well understand your frustration and have been the same myself.
Everything the NHS says is "one size fits all" , obviously we are not all one size so there are always going to be problems.
Without the NHS what else is there ??
Forums like this one are used by people who mean well, but, good intentions can't prevent people (including me) giving incorrect advice.
Difficult but please keep on looking for a qualifted source of information and guidance. If your not happy with your gp or nurse, go above them, if your then not happy with that person go above them, they exist in a pyramid system and there is always someone up a tier.
There is also the possibility that one is incorrect.
It is starting to look to me as though booting carbs into touch has more long term negatives than short term benefits, so I was possibly wrong about that.
We live and learn everyday.
I will keep on asking Qs of those regarded as experts in the field, be interesting comparing the different views that come to light.

Good luck Blue.

 

[Dollypolly]

You don't have to eat all the carbs they tell you from the eat well plate I eat on average 100g not the recommended 230g. I went against dietary advice from the one off course they sent me on and with nursy. She still freaks over the "fat" in my diet. Oh and eating fats doesn't correlate to high cholesterol. They think we need pandering to when most research first then embark. Yes I went to low for me but I adjusted and levels as this is why I started it came down not weight loss that was secondary for me.

 

[the blue wildebeest]

Hello Blue.

Please think very carefully about meddling with any meds, I can well understand your frustration and have been the same myself.
Everything the NHS says is "one size fits all" , obviously we are not all one size so there are always going to be problems.
Without the NHS what else is there ??
Forums like this one are used by people who mean well, but, good intentions can't prevent people (including me) giving incorrect advice.
Difficult but please keep on looking for a qualifted source of information and guidance. If your not happy with your gp or nurse, go above them, if your then not happy with that person go above them, they exist in a pyramid system and there is always someone up a tier.
There is also the possibility that one is incorrect.
It is starting to look to me as though booting carbs into touch has more long term negatives than short term benefits, so I was possibly wrong about that.
We live and learn everyday.
I will keep on asking Qs of those regarded as experts in the field, be interesting comparing the different views that come to light.

Good luck Blue.

Thank you for your concern. I really do appreciate it, and I am increasingly aware that advice may be of different value depending on the source.

My concern is a result of receiving orthodox advice some years ago, and following it precisely, but with moderate results and very limited monitoring. I have tried to obtain information about HbA1c results prior to 2016, but these and other records seem to be unavailable. I was not told anything except in the vaguest terms. At the time I did see a GP who was himself diabetic, and found him to be persuasively informed and sympathetic to recording BGs regularly. The present staff at the surgery appear to regard regular observance of BGs as a bit excessive, unnecessary and undesirable. When I said that one reason for maintaining a close scrutiny was to allow myself a slightly more varied diet I got a decidedly condescending response from DSN "T", who is "not a dietitian", but who supposed that "it depends on how much you have". And indeed it does, although I may add that I am not in the habit of preparing breakfast in a bucket. But as she had already expressed the opinion that there was no purpose in meeting, and that it was a "waste of time", asked a question about Gliclazide, and contradicted a reply I had not made... I have to agree with her: it was a waste of time.

So... HbA1c last year of 125, and I have the attention of a GP. With a succession leading to a January HbA1c of 43, and I am listed as "no further action needed", no interest in whether this was pure chance, or perhaps the application of a suitable strategy, and I am now regarded as an inconvenient and somewhat obsessive waster of the time of a DSN I had not seen in years.

Although the pyramid of expertise exists within the NHS, the obstructions to access also exist. And I do find it questionable that a medication with a stated 1 in 10 possibility of having an adverse effect on BGs has not been reviewed in a decade. As a responsible adult with a capacity for making informed decisions as well as ill conceived judgments I am in the curious position of having few responsibilities to others.

It is good to know that there are others taking an interest.