Back to the drawing board

[happydog]

My morning readings are always high, 6's and sometimes in the 7's but they drop quickly and could be lower even shortly after breakfast. Think it might be dawn phenomenon but the DN said she had never heard of DP, so no help there. I thought that I would try fasting so have been skipping breakfast with bad results it just goes up and up even without food. I got a 7.2 today after no food for about sixteen hours. Had a scrambled egg for lunch and tested after an hour 6.2 and after two hours 5.7, so back to the drawing board for me Have a nasty feeling my next HbA1c will not be good.)

 

[Robin]

That's appalling! Any nurse who professes to have a diabetic specialism should be aware of it!
Eating breakfast quite often knocks it on the head, especially a protein or slow release one that isn't going to add to the amount of circulating glucose. Once your liver knows there's a source of energy being ingested, it eases up.
Just sorry you had to find this out by trial and error, not from your health care professional. My nurse admits she doesn't know much ( she's not a specialist diabetic nurse) but if I ask her anything , she'll google it for her own satisfaction. A quick google of NHS resources came up with this as the top hit, so it wouldn't have been difficult for her.
https://www.uclh.nhs.uk/PandV/PIL/Patient information leaflets/High morning glucose.pdf

 

[grovesy]

My morning readings are always high, 6's and sometimes in the 7's but they drop quickly and could be lower even shortly after breakfast. Think it might be dawn phenomenon but the DN said she had never heard of DP, so no help there. I thought that I would try fasting so have been skipping breakfast with bad results it just goes up and up even without food. I got a 7.2 today after no food for about sixteen hours. Had a scrambled egg for lunch and tested after an hour 6.2 and after two hours 5.7, so back to the drawing board for me Have a nasty feeling my next HbA1c will not be good.)

Have you tried the bed time snack that some seem to say helps?

 

[Deleted member 16779]

I found my background glucose level was high until I lost weight. One of the things that insulin does is to tell your liver to stop producing glucose, if you ingest some, or it's too high in your bloodstream - but if you have too much fat in your liver, the insulin doesn't do its job. My theory is that as I lost fat out of my liver it started to respond again - the same effect has meant that I'm now able to tolerate more carbs, as I'm less insulin resistant.

 

[Amigo]

My morning readings are always high, 6's and sometimes in the 7's but they drop quickly and could be lower even shortly after breakfast. Think it might be dawn phenomenon but the DN said she had never heard of DP, so no help there. I thought that I would try fasting so have been skipping breakfast with bad results it just goes up and up even without food. I got a 7.2 today after no food for about sixteen hours. Had a scrambled egg for lunch and tested after an hour 6.2 and after two hours 5.7, so back to the drawing board for me Have a nasty feeling my next HbA1c will not be good.)

Why is in the 6's considered high happydog? NICE recommend 7 or under on waking and no more than 8.5 two hours after a meal to avoid complications. Mine average mid 6's on a morning and also sometimes drop a little after breakfast. My last Hba1c was 40. It's rare for me to ever drop below 5.9 even if I don't eat and stay fairly steady during the day at high 6's/low 7's.
I agree with Chris that losing weight can affect the background glucose and I'm sure mine would drop if I lost more weight. The Dawn Phenomenon can be hard to overcome.

 

[happydog]

Thank you for your replies. I am not overweight and never have been, in fact the doctor was upset that I was loosing too much weight when I first started on the LCHF diet. I don't tell him anything about it now. The DN pushes the 60% carbs at every meal whenever I see her and I pretend to listen and get out asap. I tried the bed time snack and that did not make much difference. I know that any kind of stress makes my BG rise and also exercise seems to push it up too, but it does come down after an hour or so. I will just keep trying and hoping for a good result in March. I am always striving for lower figures. It was 36 a year ago but last time had risen to 42 which was not good. I thought that it could be due to all the stress that I had during the year as my husband was so ill. I now look after him full-time and had to give up my job. They have said if it goes over that I will have to start on medication. A friend has suggested some exercises that are supposed to stimulate the pancreas but I have not tried them yet. Thanks again 🙂

 

[mikeyB]

I would kill for numbers like yours, Happydog. Robin is right about the dawn phenomenon, as those of us with intact non fatty livers know only too well. Don't skip breakfast, or you'll kick your liver into overtime to keep everything working. Once you've eaten, it should calm down. Bit like an irritating cat, first thing.🙂

 

[trophywench]

The difference being, I suppose, that you can always kick a cat, as an absolutely last resort if pushed to that limit - whereas, you can't, diabetes!

 

[grovesy]

Thank you for your replies. I am not overweight and never have been, in fact the doctor was upset that I was loosing too much weight when I first started on the LCHF diet. I don't tell him anything about it now. The DN pushes the 60% carbs at every meal whenever I see her and I pretend to listen and get out asap. I tried the bed time snack and that did not make much difference. I know that any kind of stress makes my BG rise and also exercise seems to push it up too, but it does come down after an hour or so. I will just keep trying and hoping for a good result in March. I am always striving for lower figures. It was 36 a year ago but last time had risen to 42 which was not good. I thought that it could be due to all the stress that I had during the year as my husband was so ill. I now look after him full-time and had to give up my job. They have said if it goes over that I will have to start on medication. A friend has suggested some exercises that are supposed to stimulate the pancreas but I have not tried them yet. Thanks again 🙂

What exercises are supposed to stimulate the Pancreas?

 

[mikeyB]

Easy. The walk down to the chippy.

 

[Deleted member 16779]

What exercises are supposed to stimulate the Pancreas?

Wow, googling for it produces a whole bunch of crazy stuff - yoga mostly - 'specially designed to press against your pancreas, stimulating it into production'. I don't think there's any evidence that squeezing it produces more hormones.

 

[mikeyB]

You're absolutely right, Chris. The pancreas is the most inaccessible organ in the body. You can't compress it because of where it is, hiding behind the lower part of the stomach and loops of small and large bowel. And, of course, it wouldn't work if you could.

 

[everydayupsanddowns]

My morning readings are always high, 6's and sometimes in the 7's but they drop quickly and could be lower even shortly after breakfast. Think it might be dawn phenomenon but the DN said she had never heard of DP, so no help there. I thought that I would try fasting so have been skipping breakfast with bad results it just goes up and up even without food. I got a 7.2 today after no food for about sixteen hours. Had a scrambled egg for lunch and tested after an hour 6.2 and after two hours 5.7, so back to the drawing board for me Have a nasty feeling my next HbA1c will not be good.)

Sorry you are disappointed with your results @happydog, but as others have said, from some perspectives they look excellent. But I understand how it can feel if your results used to be lower and it seems that they are creeping up.

I think the extended fasting thing needs to be put to one side since the body can do odd things when it thinks it is being starved. I also agree that not eating breakfast (or at least *something*) quite soon after waking can cause the hornome/glucose boost in the mornings to continue as the live doesn't get all relaxed and switch off when the fuel arrives.

Your scrambled egg lunch results look absolutely excellent to me. Don't forget that non-diabetic people have rises and falls in glucose - so a completely flat line is pretty much impossible, and the levels you are mentioning here are so close to the non-diabetic range as to pose very little threat to your long term health IMO. Plus you have to factor in the fact that meters are not 100% precise, and some of those results 6.2 vs 5.7 for example simply fall within the inaccuracy tolerances of the meter itself!

 

[Lindarose]

I'm a bit surprised that you've been told you will have to take medication even if your levels have gone up s bit more. I didn't start on metformin until I reached 50. You're doing so well without any although I totally understand the worry if seeing higher numbers. Hopefully things will be same or maybe lower by march happydog.

 

[happydog]

Thank you everyone. Our GP practice are great fans of medication and I already have non-compliant on my notes because I refused metformin and statins. My doctor does not believe that diet and exercise can work for long (over 4 years for me now, much to his chagrin). Grovesy these exercises are things like lie on the floor and raise your legs up a nearby wall to "massage" the pancreas etc, bit odd if you ask me, but i am always open to new ideas that might help. 🙂

 

[everydayupsanddowns]

Thank you everyone. Our GP practice are great fans of medication and I already have non-compliant on my notes because I refused metformin and statins. My doctor does not believe that diet and exercise can work for long (over 4 years for me now, much to his chagrin). Grovesy these exercises are things like lie on the floor and raise your legs up a nearby wall to "massage" the pancreas etc, bit odd if you ask me, but i am always open to new ideas that might help. 🙂

If that's actually true, it would make me leave that surgery immediately if at all possible. That sort of paternalistic view of healthcare has no place in my treatment.

 

[Deleted member 16779]

Thank you everyone. Our GP practice are great fans of medication and I already have non-compliant on my notes because I refused metformin and statins. My doctor does not believe that diet and exercise can work for long (over 4 years for me now, much to his chagrin). Grovesy these exercises are things like lie on the floor and raise your legs up a nearby wall to "massage" the pancreas etc, bit odd if you ask me, but i am always open to new ideas that might help. 🙂

I would take the Metformin to be honest - it's a really useful, safe drug, the side effects are minor and generally diminish with time for most people, especially if you take the slow release. It's not an absolute choice between diet and medication, there's no reason you can't do both, as they will both help in their way. I'm on the LCHF diet and though I've cut down my Metformin from 2g to 1g per day, I reckon it lowers my BG by about 5-10% more - it all adds up. There's been some recent research which shows that it also seems to help with some cancers, Breast Cancer in particular.http://www.cancerresearchuk.org/abo.../a-study-looking-drug-metformin-breast-cancer

 

[Northerner]

@happydog, you are doing fine - as others say, things do fluctuate, and even for non-diabetic people - in fact it wouldn't surprise me if there are millions of 'non-diabetic' people walking around right now who would show much greater fluctuations in their levels, because they don't consider what they are eating and are oblivious. And whilst metformin may be lauded as some sort of wonder-drug, I'm with you on not wanting to take unnecessary medications. Just look after yourself as you have been doing and keep reminding yourself that these 'professionals who have been unrelentingly negative to you are being proved WRONG every time they see you. It's dreadful how pessimistic a picture they paint, and ought to go for some 're-training'! 😱 🙂

 

[Bubbsie]

Thank you everyone. Our GP practice are great fans of medication and I already have non-compliant on my notes because I refused metformin and statins. My doctor does not believe that diet and exercise can work for long (over 4 years for me now, much to his chagrin). Grovesy these exercises are things like lie on the floor and raise your legs up a nearby wall to "massage" the pancreas etc, bit odd if you ask me, but i am always open to new ideas that might help. 🙂

happydog we call my GP Dr Max Meds (amongst other things)...he is a huge fan of medication...at my first review despite beating the target he set me...he insisted he needed to have me on the maximum dose of Metformin...he was unrelenting...I took the script...came home so distraught...however...wrote to him the following day...then had a call from him...thirty minutes of grovelling apology...good for you standing your ground...and I agree with the others your numbers are well within the NICE guidelines...as are mine...however I do appreciate the need to have/want them back where they were...I am around 6.1 on average now...again within the guidelines...but do want to get them lower...possibly a stress increase...could be anything...appalled you have been labelled non-compliant...clearly you knew what you were/are doing with numbers like 36...even 42...sometimes when you resist their advice/instructions with good reason...they see that as a challenge...as opposed to knowledge...practice and experience.