Another probably pointless thought

[Gwynn]

Following on from (the now dropped) polyol consideration...

Looking at a more mundane NHS guidance aspect ...5 a day

The NHS recommends 5 fruit and 5 vedge portions a day (they want to make it 7). A portion being 80g

This must surely present problems for those with T2 diabetes as looking just at the carb content of fruit and vedge it seems that over half the carb 'allowance' for a low carb diet would come from those fruit and vedge.

This must surely give us diabetics a bit of a headache trying to balance things and keep carbs down.

I am not worried just fascinated.

I am updating my App to account for 'portions' as it interests me. Just looking over the data briefly it looks like I have been spot on or very close throughout...by sheer accident I might add.

Am I over thinking it? Probably, but if the NHS provide this guidance then surely it is important for diabetics to take note too (mind you, you might do so already. Just speaking for myself, I didn't, until now).

Updating the App keeps me busy and well hidden from the constant trauma my wife creates.

Sorry if this is all irrelevant or bores the pants off you.

 

[Robin]

It’s 5 fruit and veg, isn’t it? Not 5 fruit AND 5 veg?
In the course of a day, if you eat half an avocado, a portion of berries, a portion of salad leaves, a couple of portions of broccoli, cabbage or french beans, I doubt that adds up to very much carb. Haven't got a carb calculator handy, so I‘ll leave it to you to work it out!

 

[Ljc]

Sorry . Slightly off topic I’ve found that at least in my area , hospital meals don’t follow their own nhs dietary advise . With a traditional English dinner unlessits a Salad you get, potatoes anda tiny portion of veg plus meat or pie. Unless you can buy a. Apple or banana if they have one when the sweet trolly comes round , or have a tiny pot of whatever fruit in juice they have on the dinnertrolly .
Breakfast is all carbs so is tea .

I’ve always believed it’s 5 fruit and veg not 5 of each. Growing up as a kid in the 50s I don’t remember having fruit everyday, perhaps two or three time a week and then it was only one apple, pear or banana . Veg was plentiful .

 

[everydayupsanddowns]

Yes that’s my understanding too @Robin

But I think the bottom line is generally thought to be that however much veg you are eating, it would probably help to eat more! Obviously, with diabetes, choosing veg (and fruit) with an eye on BG impact for you as an individual is an important factor. It can also help to try to make choices which include as many different colours of veg as you can (simplistically different colours of veg tend to contain different micronutrients).

 

[Docb]

Like most advertising slogans - and five a day has more in common with an advertising slogan than it has with nutritional advice - it is designed to mean all things to all men. It apparently tells you a lot but actually says nothing.

A portion of chips for breakfast, another for lunch and a treble portion for tea will meet the "five portions of fruit or veg a day" criterion but I doubt if the originators of the slogan would suggest that is what they meant. Also, I have often wondered if rhubarb counts? It's not a fruit or veg.

What might be interesting in your app @Gwynn, which I am guessing is mainly aimed at assessing carbohydrate in diet would be to introduce some error functions into the underlying calculations. Should you sort out and account for the fact that some estimates will be subject to larger errors than others.

For example, take the humble spud. The only way you can get a precise measure of the carb content of a given cooked spud is to do a complicated set of tests, the net effect of which will be to render the spud inedible. So you have to make a guess. What do you take into account? The variety maybe, its age when picked, the time in storage, the cooking method? I am sure there are other factors. The real question is whether these variables are important and as a consequence how changing them will influence the guess you make. Maybe there are some food stuffs where the potential error is large and others where it is small. Can you build that into an app in order to improve the ability of the app to predict the effect of a given meal on blood glucose.

Working that lot out should keep you out of mischief for a while. 🙂

When you have done that then you can turn your attention to the other side of the equation. We say all carb turns to glucose. That's worth a look at. Its probably true that all carb has the potential to turn to glucose but what controls whether that transformation occurs and whether the resultant glucose will turn up in the blood stream is a whole new area to think about.

 

[Leadinglights]

Like most advertising slogans - and five a day has more in common with an advertising slogan than it has with nutritional advice - it is designed to mean all things to all men. It apparently tells you a lot but actually says nothing.

A portion of chips for breakfast, another for lunch and a treble portion for tea will meet the "five portions of fruit or veg a day" criterion but I doubt if the originators of the slogan would suggest that is what they meant. Also, I have often wondered if rhubarb counts? It's not a fruit or veg.

What might be interesting in your app @Gwynn, which I am guessing is mainly aimed at assessing carbohydrate in diet would be to introduce some error functions into the underlying calculations. Should you sort out and account for the fact that some estimates will be subject to larger errors than others.

For example, take the humble spud. The only way you can get a precise measure of the carb content of a given cooked spud is to do a complicated set of tests, the net effect of which will be to render the spud inedible. So you have to make a guess. What do you take into account? The variety maybe, its age when picked, the time in storage, the cooking method? I am sure there are other factors. The real question is whether these variables are important and as a consequence how changing them will influence the guess you make. Maybe there are some food stuffs where the potential error is large and others where it is small. Can you build that into an app in order to improve the ability of the app to predict the effect of a given meal on blood glucose.

Working that lot out should keep you out of mischief for a while. 🙂

When you have done that then you can turn your attention to the other side of the equation. We say all carb turns to glucose. That's worth a look at. Its probably true that all carb has the potential to turn to glucose but what controls whether that transformation occurs and whether the resultant glucose will turn up in the blood stream is a whole new area to think about.

I didn't think potatoes counted in the 5 fruit and veg number.

 

[Inka]

I didn't think potatoes counted in the 5 fruit and veg number.

They don’t - which, of course, helps the carb-watching easier.

Veg is supposed to make up the majority of your daily total. Most people don’t eat enough veg. It’s pretty much all low carb so you can omit any higher carb ones eg parsnip. There’s absolutely no reason why somebody with diabetes couldn’t aim to meet that target @Gwynn The carbs would be minimal.

 

[Gwynn]

Looking on the NHS guidance (not sure where it was now) it clearly stated 5 fruit AND 5 vedge.

However, 5 of either (or a mix) sounds a lot more sensible to me.

And, yes, I agree, a sort of easy to remember, advertising slogan. I guess the NHS top bods or the Government thought we were all a bit thick, hence the over simplification. Mind you I can be a bit thick sometimes.

I am well, regardless of what the slogan says anyway. So in a sense it is a bit irrelevant, but it might not be (perhaps health issues developing unnoticed because of a lack of fruit/vedge)

I was just curious and wondered if the guidance gave any problems for diabetics.

Hmm NHS following their own advice? Now that might be interesting. When I was in hospital recently they gave us (several diabetics) completely inappropriate food !

I keep digging into it as it is fascinating to me.

Thanks for your helpful, and kind replies.

I will update with what I find out (right or wrong)

 

[Leadinglights]

I think this is what you were thinking of in the NHS guide lines.

Evidence shows there are significant health benefits to getting at least 5 portions of a variety of fruit and vegetables every day. That's 5 portions of fruit and veg in total, not 5 portions of each. A portion of fruit or vegetables is 80g.

 

[Gwynn]

I wrote a new response but it disappeared into the internet broth somewhere

 

[Docb]

I didn't think potatoes counted in the 5 fruit and veg number.

That's the trouble with advertising slogans, they are devised so that they can mean whatever the reader wants them to mean.

And keep digging Gwynn. I started on that path a while ago and give up when the sewage works problem took over.

 

[Inka]

Here’s the guidance:


https://www.nhs.uk/live-well/eat-well/5-a-day-what-counts/

Some other things don’t count in addition to potatoes.

 

[Gwynn]

Ok I will rewrite the message.

Yes it is an easy to remember slogan for us mere mortals. (Kind of worked)

I looked on the internet again and discovered that different countries have different guidelines and different portion sizes.

Most have adopted 5 a day fruit OR vegetables

France is 5 AND/OR

The uk is in a unique position. It was 5 fruit or vedge or a mix, but in 2014 the top bods recommended changing it to 10 a day.

So which is it. Which should it be.

Does it matter. Well, those clever, knowledgable people think that it does.

I will monitor my own intake out of curiosity. Regarding 5 a day fruit and/or vedge I easily attain that at 80g a portion. But 10? No, I fail to get there.

Thanks for the correction.

I will try to find the web site that said 5 fruit And 5 vedge

 

[Gwynn]

And I now read that there have been calls for a middle ground of 7 a day.

I bet no one is confused

 

[helli]

A portion of chips for breakfast, another for lunch and a treble portion for tea will meet the "five portions of fruit or veg a day" criterion but I doubt if the originators of the slogan would suggest that is what they meant.

I think the "potatoes don't count" is a UK thing to avoid fulfilling your quota with chips.
But other countries (I think Netherlands is one) leave it to you to decide which fruit and veg.

Think I'll get chocolate and raisin muffin - chocolate is a bean and raisins are grapes so that's two of mine sorted for the day 🙄

 

[Becka]

In 1990, I think, a WHO report recommended eating 400g of fruit and non-starchy tuber vegetables a day as a way to prevent risk of serious disease and promote longer life.

That was eventually adopted in the U.K., and many other countries, as public health advice to eat five 80g or 3 oz portions every day.

Although in Australia they promoted a much greater 2&5 policy, which is two 150g portions of fruit and five 75g portions of vegetables.

The official U.K. advice has only ever been for a minimum of five-a-day (in total).

In 2014 a study showed that eating seven portions a day would further prevent serious disease. Then in 2017 a meta-study, one which analyses the results of the various studies in an area, showed that ten portions a day had an even better effect. It also broke it down into which types of fruit vegetable best prevents which disease. There was no data available to say whether a greater still number of portions would be more beneficial, though.

But that is the nature of science, you are constantly learning, discovering, and adpating accordingly.

 

[pm133]

To be honest, I'm trying to think of an example but I'm not sure I've ever given more than a seconds thought to any generic government guidance on any issue and that includes advice on fruit and veg, smoking or alcohol.

I wouldn't criticise anyone for trying to follow their advice but I am genuinely surprised anyone pays any attention to any of it.

 

[Nayshiftin]

It’s 5 fruit and veg, isn’t it? Not 5 fruit AND 5 veg?
In the course of a day, if you eat half an avocado, a portion of berries, a portion of salad leaves, a couple of portions of broccoli, cabbage or french beans, I doubt that adds up to very much carb. Haven't got a carb calculator handy, so I‘ll leave it to you to work it out!

Robin as you seem to be on top. Do we cancel fibre out with fruit and veg towards the carbs. I have been told this by a person but to be honest I kept quiet because I did not comprehend. Can you help me understand more. Thanks for the list of good veg . Pity I do not eat avocado .

 

[Leadinglights]

In the Uk the fibre has already been deducted from the carb value. So you are looking at that total carb number.
If you are looking at American info then fiber is included in a carb value.

 

[Robin]

I wrote a new response but it disappeared into the internet broth somewhere

I think it’s popped up on the 7 day waking average thread!