Adjusting Long Acting Insulin

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digihat

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Relationship to Diabetes
Type 1
Good Morning everyone 🙂

Hope everyone is having a good weekend

Just a quick question regarding adjusting long acting insulin. I currently take Toujeo 30 units in the morning I find that overnight my levels rise not as much before as we have kept gradually increasing the amount in conjunction with DSN which has gradually kept the levels lower. When we put it up to 30 a day I found that my levels were plunging often into hypo territory after each meal. This resulted in tweaking the carb to insulin 1:12 which stabilised the issue

I was planning to up up my long acting to 32units which i think might hit the spot for overnight. This excludes the dawn phenomenon

I was just wondering how the relationship works with long acting and rapid insulin during the day if that makes sense?

Just a little wary after what happened last time I am still bit new to all this but slowly getting there 🙂
 
@digihat Yourbasal should hold your blood sugar steady in the absence of food. You can do a basal test to see if it does, but, from what you’ve said, you might find a twice daily basal insulin better as you can then adjust the daytime and nighttime portions separately, thus avoiding lows at night and still controlling your blood sugar during the day.
 
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Once you have your basal basically right you’ll find it easier to get the correct meal ratios.
 
@digihat Yourbasal should hold your blood sugar steady in the absence of food. You can do a basal test to see if it does, but, from what you’ve said, you might find a twice daily basal insulin better as you can then adjust the daytime and nighttime portions separately, thus avoiding lows at night and still controlling your blood sugar during the day.
Thanks for the above @Inka will look at setting up doing some Basal testing
 
The forum hive mind often recommends tweaking basal insulin first, before fiddling with meal ratios or correction factors, so I think your previous adjustments were in the easiest order.

Running a few basal checks through different portions of the day until your basal is holding you as level as possible through the 24 hours in the absence of food and meal insulin can feel like a bit of a faff, but it is effort well spent. It won’t be fixed forever, but once you’ve seen how your basal needs rise and fall through the day further changes can sometimes just be done by instinct or a quick one-section check rather than running the whole day at least twice.

As @Inka says, it might also help you to see if a twice daily basal might suit you better - or if not, which points of the day your ‘best fit’ single dose is slightly over-reaching or under-reaching.

In general as my doses ebb and flow through the year 9 times out of 10 it’s only my basal that needs a tweak to get my meal ratios and correction factors to ‘work’ again.

Good luck with it, and hope the basal change doesn’t make other things too wobbly in the meantime.
 
The forum hive mind often recommends tweaking basal insulin first, before fiddling with meal ratios or correction factors, so I think your previous adjustments were in the easiest order.

Running a few basal checks through different portions of the day until your basal is holding you as level as possible through the 24 hours in the absence of food and meal insulin can feel like a bit of a faff, but it is effort well spent. It won’t be fixed forever, but once you’ve seen how your basal needs rise and fall through the day further changes can sometimes just be done by instinct or a quick one-section check rather than running the whole day at least twice.

As @Inka says, it might also help you to see if a twice daily basal might suit you better - or if not, which points of the day your ‘best fit’ single dose is slightly over-reaching or under-reaching.

In general as my doses ebb and flow through the year 9 times out of 10 it’s only my basal that needs a tweak to get my meal ratios and correction factors to ‘work’ again.

Good luck with it, and hope the basal change doesn’t make other things too wobbly in the meantime.
@everydayupsanddowns thanks for the detailed reply. Im slowly getting more confident with doing my own tweaks now the more I get into the habit of doing all this.

Thanks for the above advice along with @Inka suggestions about doing some basal testing Im going to try schedule something in this week. Yeah after reading the link above it is quite a faff after reading through but think it will be worth it. I do want to give splitting it into two a try as well as hoping that might solve the issue. When we put it up 30 units in the morning it has helped overall barring too many hypos which the carb ratio sorted out

For the moment ive tweaked my toujeo basal to 32units as my BG went from 4.7 to 11.4 overnight when I woke up. It is mainly the night time I'm having issue with morning-evening pretty steady subject to what carbs i have learning as I go with that!
 
You’d most likely need a different insulin for a split to work I think. Tresiba has too long of an activity curve and the 2 smaller doses would just overlap and even out most likely.

Levemir only acts for more like 12-16 hours, so is better suited for those who want a different amount of basal active daytime and nighttime.

It also seems to be very responsive to dose changes, which take effect pretty much instantly, whereas some longer acting basals like the various glargines have a 2-3 day lag before the new dose has settled in.
 
@everydayupsanddowns thanks for the detailed reply. Im slowly getting more confident with doing my own tweaks now the more I get into the habit of doing all this.

Thanks for the above advice along with @Inka suggestions about doing some basal testing Im going to try schedule something in this week. Yeah after reading the link above it is quite a faff after reading through but think it will be worth it. I do want to give splitting it into two a try as well as hoping that might solve the issue. When we put it up 30 units in the morning it has helped overall barring too many hypos which the carb ratio sorted out

For the moment ive tweaked my toujeo basal to 32units as my BG went from 4.7 to 11.4 overnight when I woke up. It is mainly the night time I'm having issue with morning-evening pretty steady subject to what carbs i have learning as I go with that!

You’d be better off with a twice daily insulin. The whole point is that they act for a shorter time, thus allowing you to have different amounts for day and night. You mention nighttime being the issue - a twice daily insulin would hopefully sort that.
 
You’d be better off with a twice daily insulin. The whole point is that they act for a shorter time, thus allowing you to have different amounts for day and night. You mention nighttime being the issue - a twice daily insulin would hopefully sort that.

@Inka @everydayupsanddowns think you both are right regarding the above about splitting is probably the best way to go and a change of insulin to allow this to happen. I am due to see the dietician on the 13th will bring it up then about proposing making a change. Subject to any more surprises hopefully final test result is back fingers crossed. The DSN I'm under is normally at the appointment as well for now will carry on with toujeo increase and doing a basal unit test until 13th which can then hopefully get the change made. Dont have full on confidence yet without speaking to staff at the hospital for the moment but getting there

Thanks for the above advice
 
Great to hear @digihat

When was the last rapid insulin you took in the evening?

I’ve had a few periods where any last lingering bits of IOB (insulin on board) suddenly get supercharged when I doze off - which resulted in a similar-looking lurch downward around midnight-ish.

It helped me to try to have my evening meal a little earlier, so that dose was ‘spent’ by bedtime.
 
@everydayupsanddowns still holding steady overnight still rises abit but not waking up to double digits anymore thankfully. Noticed the dip you mentioned this morning as well

I generally take my last rapid insulin shot just before 8pm as that's when eat our evening meal I could eat earlier, but we try to eat together as a family much as we can. Also depending if I've been gym i tend to wait abit longer due to insulin sensitivity if i can saves me cutting down insulin by 1/3 etc

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Glad your tweaks to basal are paying off @digihat .
 
Hello @digihat,

Well done for getting on with your "trial and learning" process. In his book "Think Like a Pancreas" Gary Scheiner remarks (quite early on) that Diabetes is Complicated, Confusing and Contradictory. I think that most neatly sums D up! Nothing to do with insulin dependency is straightforward, in my limited experience.

Your team started you on 24 units of a long acting basal, Toujeo, and tweaked you to 26 a few days later - now 32 units and you are seeing better outcomes. That is great in all respects; they started you with some caution to minimise your vulnerability to hypos and now you are getting there. It might end up that you will want or need to change to a shorter lived basal that can be split into 2 differing parts for day and night (as surmised by a couple of remarks in replies to one of your earlier posts), but that would be, in my opinion, premature just now. There is merit in getting the existing Toujeo basal tried and confirmed first, then look at alternatives if that is what is needed. We all have differing needs and respond differently (hence D is Complicated).

I am on Tresiba basal, which is even longer in its profile at c.40 hrs. That means for me no possible sense in splitting it, today's dose is topping up yesterday's dose. Our basal needs are simply not equal or constant across a 24 hr period (hence D is Complicated and Confusing) and not necessary similar on 2 successive working days (hence D is Contradictory) for a multitude of reasons. An analysis relatively recently suggested 40+ factors that are known to affect blood glucose; that raises more permutations than my mental maths will cope with (did I mention that D is Complicated?).

The point I'm coming to is that given basal needs vary (in general) from night to day and back to night and you are on a single daily basal dose, you can only aspire to finding an average basal dose that holds you steady for part of the 24 hrs. If the basal is perfect by night it is most unlikely to also be perfect by day. I quite blatantly have optimised my Tresiba basal to hold me steady through the night which is my longest fasting period of my 24 hr day and the period when I'm mainly sleeping or resting. But I'm over 70 and I no longer party into the small hours (but can remember that happening before we started our family and sometimes running around after teenagers later on!).

So MY basal testing needs no extra effort: I scrutinise my CGM graph, confirm that in general my BG remains pretty flat through the night for successive nights and know I've got my basal about right. Then ALL other of my BG needs are covered by my bolus insulin (NovoRapid) in conjunction with activity (exercise) which improves my insulin sensitivity and makes whatever insulin that I have on board "go further"; plus along with main meals and snacks when necessary. Whatever my Tresiba basal is bringing to my daytime party is what it is; I don't try to allow for it, or even consider it - its just there in the background. And that does have an advantage of keeping things simpler, no need to think about basal by day and whether it is appropriate for this particular day.

This is, of course, all so much easier to monitor and respond to thanks to CGM and the alerts. [I prefer to use my alarms as alerts and use them to tell me when my BG is changing (trend arrows when I had Libre 2, actual alerts as well as arrows now with Dexcom G7). Also I use alert settings at the top end of 5.6 (or higher with G7) for my low alert; I don't want to know when I've reached hypo territory - that's too late for me.

If you find the long profile Toujeo is broadly right for you,
you might (or might not) find that Tresiba could work even better for you -Tresiba doesn't need me to take it at a precise time each day; and people who fly frequently find it helpful for straddling time zone changes. The even longer profile of c.40 hrs provides a flexibility, that isn't apparent at 1st glance; eg dose first thing in the morning, irrespective of whether that's a work day, weekend or holiday.

But that's a distraction right now, the goal is to get your Toujeo supporting you as well as possible by understanding a bit more about what is going on, then by juggling with bolus timings to smooth out BG spikes - within reason - and so to let you live a great life, regardless of the D juggling in the background. This isn't easy and does need some grappling with - but I detect from your posts you have already pragmatically accepted this. With D I think knowledge is power. Good luck.
 
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