The Health and Social Care Act: the tale in a timeline

[Northerner]

If anyone is confused how we got to this point, have a look at this link. Highly informative.

http://www.kingsfund.org.uk/topics/nhs-reform/health-and-social-care-act-2012-timeline

 

[ypauly]

At first glance it looks like it's written by Andy Burnham to deny his involvement lol But it is interesting. Not a single mention of his plans that the coalition ran with. how come pre 2010 when the coalition wasn't in power it's all cameron this lansley that.

This must have been written by new labour as their manifesto plans arn't mentioned at all.

 

[Northerner]

At first glance it looks like it's written by Andy Burnham to deny his involvement lol But it is interesting. Not a single mention of his plans that the coalition ran with. how come pre 2010 when the coalition wasn't in power it's all cameron this lansley that.

This must have been written by new labour as their manifesto plans arn't mentioned at all.

Er...King's Fund? And it's what has happened, not what might have?

 

[ypauly]

Er...King's Fund? And it's what has happened, not what might have?

Exactly! Conservative plans are mentioned but labour ones arn't and there were certainly labour plans. It's like the 13 years new labour spent heading in this direction has been erased from history. A lot happened under the last government yet NOTHING happened under the last opposition to that government.


This wasn't mentioned at all yet it happened there is proof lol http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EmUtSBpwJHo


Oh and the video is kings fund.

It was labour plans that the coalition ran with.


Who said our Dave said the NHS didn't need reforms? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GzUlecmAPXU I hadn't seen that before.


Did this NOT happen? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vtp72j7rD0M andy burnham promising "20 Billion of cuts in the NHS.

 

[AlisonM]

Labour plans are currently irrelevant since they are not in power and by the time they are re-elected there will likely be no NHS left. The majority of muckups in the last thirty years have been Tory led attempts to reduce what they see as a burden on the country. What was once the envy of the world for it's forward thinking and high standards of care for all has been watered down and mismanaged to such an extent that it may never recover. I wonder what they've been doing with all that money we paid in National Insurance through the years?

 

[ypauly]

Labour plans are currently irrelevant since they are not in power and by the time they are re-elected there will likely be no NHS left. The majority of muckups in the last thirty years have been Tory led attempts to reduce what they see as a burden on the country. What was once the envy of the world for it's forward thinking and high standards of care for all has been watered down and mismanaged to such an extent that it may never recover. I wonder what they've been doing with all that money we paid in National Insurance through the years?

Double standards that is. How come conservative opposition plans mattet but labours don't?

That link that alan posted shows conservative opposition plans but not the the labour government ones.

Also check out the link I posted where the burden wasn't going to be reduced not by the consrrvatives but labour

 

[AlisonM]

Also check out the link I posted where the burden wasn't going to be reduced not by the consrrvatives but labour

That makes no sense at all. And, as I said, Labour's plans, whatever they are, are irrelevant since they are not in power and have no effect on current policy.

 

[mcdonagh47]

Er...King's Fund? And it's what has happened, not what might have?

well here are Labour's plans then .... the main thrust of the Coalition's health strategy is the abolition of PCTs ... this is what the Labour Manifesto for 2010 election says about PCTs ( just 2 mentions ) ...

page 4.4 "in the coming period we will expect PCTs to challenge all services to achieve the highest quality". Oops PCTs NOT being abolished then under Labour plans.

page 4.5 "The NHS will benefit from a period of organisational stability : we will make no top-down changes to the structure of Primary Care Trusts or Strategic Health Authorities during the next Parliament, and we will ensure stability in the hospital payments system".

Let's read that again ..."no ... changes to the structure of Primary Care Trusts".
PCTs were going to be the key players in delivering Labour plans then, they weren't going to be abolished.

So how on earth can YP believe that the Coalition's slash and burn stewardship of the NHS was Labour policy ?
They are doing the exact opposite of Labour's commitments.

 

[ypauly]

Watch the links of gordon and andy I posted. The vonservative said no top down changes aswell but we now know yhere plans were diffrrent just as labours were.

 

[AlisonM]

Watch the links of gordon and andy I posted. The vonservative said no top down changes aswell but we now know yhere plans were diffrrent just as labours were.

Excuses, excuses. Who said what and their intentions doesn't matter a jot. The blame for this fiasco lies with those currently driving the change, namely the Tories. I discount the Liberals as an irrelevance knowing they are toothless and that this is a long standing dream of the right wing in this country. Which actually includes Labour these days. It really doesn't matter who dreamed up the wheeze, what counts is the effect the changes will have on all of us.

 

[mcdonagh47]

Watch the links of gordon and andy I posted. The vonservative said no top down changes aswell but we now know yhere plans were diffrrent just as labours were.

if you are in a hole stop digging !
just doggedly repeating the lie that the Tories are implementing Labour health plans won't make it true.

 

[trophywench]

implementing (Labour) health plans

Ah well, if one could only see what the plan was, that might help for starters ..... but methinks whoever we apply the description to, couldn't organise the proverbial booze up in the proverbial brewery, now could they? LOL

 

[ypauly]

Excuses, excuses. Who said what and their intentions doesn't matter a jot. The blame for this fiasco lies with those currently driving the change, namely the Tories. I discount the Liberals as an irrelevance knowing they are toothless and that this is a long standing dream of the right wing in this country. Which actually includes Labour these days. It really doesn't matter who dreamed up the wheeze, what counts is the effect the changes will have on all of us.

The liberals have stopped the conservatives doing many things that they disagreed with so why discount them?

Four liberals voted against the changes just four!!

 

[ypauly]

Ah well, if one could only see what the plan was, that might help for starters ..... but methinks whoever we apply the description to, couldn't organise the proverbial booze up in the proverbial brewery, now could they? LOL

I agree totally. None of them could I was merely pointing out that the article linked in the original post conveniently forgets some of those responsible.

 

[ypauly]

if you are in a hole stop digging !
just doggedly repeating the lie that the Tories are implementing Labour health plans won't make it true.

it is true I have just re-read the labour manifesto. those quotes you posted were not in it.


This is. are you telling me that this isn't what we are getting?

• The right to choose a GP in your area open at evenings
and weekends, with more services available on the
high-street, personal care plans and rights to individual
budgets.


so is this.

We will continue to press
ahead with bold NHS
reforms. All hospitals will
become Foundation Trusts,
with successful FTs given the
support and incentives to take
over those that are underperforming.
Failing hospitals
will have their management
replaced. Foundation Trusts will
be given the freedom to expand
their provision into primary
and community care, and to
increase their private services
– where these are consistent
with NHS values, and provided
they generate surpluses that are
invested directly into the NHS


And this.

The reforms of recent years will
allow us to do more than ever
to release savings by cutting red
tape and directing resources to
where they matter most. We
will scale down the NHS IT
programme, saving hundreds of
millions of pounds, and over the
next four years, we will deliver
up to ?20 billion of efficiencies
in the frontline NHS, ensuring
that every pound is reinvested in
frontline care.

 

[ypauly]

It really didn't matter who you voted for the result would have been the same.

That's the annoying part for me, it didn't matter what colour rosette you wore or which person you backed, we had NO choice and THAT is what is important as the political leaders can do as the wish when that happens.


What I do know is publishing biased article will not lead to the change required.

 

[LeeLee]

Does disagreeing about the cause really have an effect? Maybe it would be more productive to offer sympathy, help and support (practical or moral) to those who are the worst affected by this fiasco.

 

[ypauly]

Does disagreeing about the cause really have an effect? Maybe it would be more productive to offer sympathy, help and support (practical or moral) to those who are the worst affected by this fiasco.

Disagreeing won't help but we should as a group of people be more analytical about how things happen and how we get into these silly situations usually from some sort of misguided allegiance to a group of people we don't even know. We really do need to change our political system if we are to stay as a leading nation.

I consider myself to be more conservative (you may have noticed) but call me dave seems to be doing everything to get rid of what little support he has. I was once Labour having grown up in labour heartlands on a council estate and becaoming senior union shop steward that didn't like what I saw in the organisation. I now change my vote based on the policies on offer and would love nothing more than a decent independant to take Erdington where I live from Labour just because we have somebody tyhat was parachuted in for being the husband of a cabinet minister and until that point he had probably never even heard of the place.


We did have a good labour MP in robin corbet but sadly he is no longer with us.

 

[mcdonagh47]

it is true I have just re-read the labour manifesto. those quotes you posted were not in it.

Sounds like you need a new pair of glasses.
The quotes I gave certainly ARE in the last Labour manifesto.

And they demonstrate that Labour policy was nothing like what the Tories have done.

 

[Andy HB]

This all sounds like arguing whose fault it is as the house burns down!

Andy 🙂

p.s. I also wouldn't bother quoting from party manifestos. We all know how accurate they are when compared to what a party actually does! 😉