How much starch?

[Newtothis]

During my first DN appointment today the nurse told me that I need to add a starchy carb to each meal for energy. I have porridge in the morning with sliced banana/fresh raspberries and normally a small wholmeal pitta/fish for lunch. Evening meal doesn't normally contain a carb normally steamed veg & either a meat/fish. Snacks either cherries or walnuts (only a few).

Does everyone have starchy carbs for their main dinner?

I really need to look at meal plans...

Diagnosis: August 2011; HbA1c 7.2 currently (D/E control)

 

[Ellie Jones]

Starchy (complex) carbs are adsorbed slower so in theory should help keep the blood glucose leves more stable..

When they say carbs with every meal does meal that you work out your suitable amount per meal, and no you don't have to have carbs with every meal..

The examples you are giving are fine, don't forget your veg and cherries will have carbs in them, not as much as the humble spud or the plate of pasta,

And you don't need huge amounts of carbs in any meal, moderate amounts you fair much better..

And the only way to find out your tolerance for carbs and/or their amounts is BG testing, before and after a meal to see how your meal reacts..

If you are happy with what you are eating, and it's maintianing control then I wouldn't start adding extra carbs to satify the DSN

 

[everydayupsanddowns]

No. You. Don't.

The advice to always eat stacks of carbs 'for energy' completely confuses me. If you eat more carb than your body can process it will not give you energy, the glucose will get into your bloodstream easily enough, but then it will just slosh around not giving energy to anything (and potentially causing damage)

Is your weight stable? Are you complaining of lethargy?

You might cope fine with some carbs in the evenings, but only your meter will tell you how much your body needs.

 

[Newtothis]

No. You. Don't.

The advice to always eat stacks of carbs 'for energy' completely confuses me. If you eat more carb than your body can process it will not give you energy, the glucose will get into your bloodstream easily enough, but then it will just slosh around not giving energy to anything (and potentially causing damage)

Is your weight stable? Are you complaining of lethargy?

You might cope fine with some carbs in the evenings, but only your meter will tell you how much your body needs.

Since July 1st I've gone from 13stone to 11stone 7 - losing roughly 1-2lb per week. Aiming to be 10 stone 5 by my next appointment in 3 months time. The nurse told me not to test especially as I'm not on insulin or any medication - although I did buy a meter but need to buy some more testing strips; can't believe how expensive they are. I did have a stir fry tonight with noodles and chicken. When I eat a lot of starch it makes me feel bloated, hence not having any carbs with my evening meal. 🙂

 

[trophywench]

This is where a lot of diabetics 'in the wild' beg to differ fairly bigtime with the NHS. I have yet to find a piece of reliable info from a sensible source that proves - to me I hasten to add - that anybody diabetic or not actually needs carbs in their diet in the first place.

It's a handy source of instant satisfaction in the tum, I'll grant you that. But most people find after trying it that they can feel full a lot longer on protein than they can on carbs. "Go To Work on an Egg" the egg marketing board told me every half-hour or so during my childhood - well, after ITV was invented anyway, LOL - and unlike Consulate, which weren't 'pure as a mountain stream' at all - the Egg people actually were correct.

How on earth is it that if we can't exist without the Carb, when ultra-low carbing - Atkins diet gone mad - diabetics find their bodies make/grab glucose from both protein and fat? Less of it than from carbs, 50% and 20% is it? and yes the body has to work harder to convert those things, whereas carb is easy for it. Maybe that's one of the reasons why you get fat when eating shedloads of carbs? - cos your body ain't working so hard. Hey, maybe it encases your internal organs in fat - Oh yes, so it does!

Oh, maybe that was how the hunter-gatherers of yore managed to exist - the occasional woolly mammoth, padded out with whatever nuts and berries they could pick from the hedgerows. No spuds, no wheat (= no flour, pasta, bread, pastry etc) no spuds, protein and minimal carbs, plus a smallish amount of fat and other nutrients included in any of the three ...

Oh well, your meter will tell the story that your A1c probably won't.

Many people buy strips from eBay. I hate anyone having to do this because it shouldn't be necessary in the first place and it makes me cross!

 

[everydayupsanddowns]

Since July 1st I've gone from 13stone to 11stone 7 - losing roughly 1-2lb per week. Aiming to be 10 stone 5 by my next appointment in 3 months time. The nurse told me not to test especially as I'm not on insulin or any medication...

If this is weight you *want* to lose and your BGs are behaving, then if say you are doing brilliantly.

As for suggesting you shouldn't test unless you are on insulin... Nonsense - and it's not what NICE says (despite what many budget-focussed GPs wish). It's penny pinching pure and simple to refuse strips. Testing in 'motivated t2s who have a structured plan to use test results to maximise their diet and lifestyle changes' (that's a half-remembered quote from the NICE guidelines relating to when self BG monitoring for T2s should be encouraged)

 

[Newtothis]

I'm so mad....😡 I took the DN advice and had beans on toast for lunch; bergen bread (2 slices/small); no spread and a small tin of Heinz Baked Beans (reduced salt/sugar). Prior to testing and lunch my blood reading was 6.9 (which was slightly higher than usual - might have been the 2hr walk this morning - 8,000 steps) and 1 hr later my blood reading was 10.2. Going to check in another 1hr but my decision to cut out bread from my diet is right for me.

Since testing this is the highest reading I have ever had 😱

Really disappointed.

 

[Mark T]

Don't blame the bread too quickly - Baked Beans have a reputation for being naughty!

If you are eating some starchy carbs, then opting for low GI is usually better. Boiled new potatoes and burgen bread are both generally low GI.

I assume that was the linseed Burgen - since the buckwheat version is definitely not low GI.

 

[Newtothis]

Don't blame the bread too quickly - Baked Beans have a reputation for being naughty!

If you are eating some starchy carbs, then opting for low GI is usually better. Boiled new potatoes and burgen bread are both generally low GI.

I assume that was the linseed Burgen - since the buckwheat version is definitely not low GI.

It was the linseed/soya burgen - I thought baked beans were meant to be good for you; hence buying the reduced salt/sugar. I'm going to check again in 20mins this will be 2hrs after the meal. I am really shocked.....

 

[Mark T]

It was the linseed/soya burgen - I thought baked beans were meant to be good for you; hence buying the reduced salt/sugar. I'm going to check again in 20mins this will be 2hrs after the meal. I am really shocked.....

The weird thing is that baked beans are listed as low GI in the information I have - which means that it should not be such an issue. Be interesting to see where your 2 hour reading goes to.

I believe that your meal was probably 40-50g Carb. A similar sized meal for me would usually give me a postprandial less then <2mmol/L (metformin doesn't do anything for postprandial response, so the results are comparable).

Oh.

Does everyone have starchy carbs for their main dinner?

Breakfast - no, I tend to keep that low Carb
Lunch - yes - I usually have 2 slices of linseed burgen
Dinner - yes, usually a small number of boiled new potatoes. Occasionally a little pasta or rice.

Portions are sized to keep my postprandial below 8 mmol/L 🙂

 

[Newtothis]

The weird thing is that baked beans are listed as low GI in the information I have - which means that it should not be such an issue. Be interesting to see where your 2 hour reading goes to.

I believe that your meal was probably 40-50g Carb. A similar sized meal for me would usually give me a postprandial less then <2mmol/L (metformin doesn't do anything for postprandial response, so the results are comparable).

Oh.

Breakfast - no, I tend to keep that low Carb
Lunch - yes - I usually have 2 slices of linseed burgen
Dinner - yes, usually a small number of boiled new potatoes. Occasionally a little pasta or rice.

Portions are sized to keep my postprandial below 8 mmol/L 🙂

My 2hr reading is now 10.9 (which is higher than 1 hour ago); shall I go for a walk to bring it down?

 

[everydayupsanddowns]

Mark - looks like Baked Beans are another of those YDMV (your diabetes may vary) ones then. They always behave themselves impeccably for me - in fact I usually don't count them for their 'full' CHO load as their release is slow enough in me that I risk the injected insulin overtaking their absorption and dipping into a hypo!

Actually Newtothis, the meal doesn't seem a disastrous rise (although the 1hr peak was higher than you wanted) as you went from 7ish to 10.2. In the future you might consider a lower carb load whenenver you start higher?

As for the 10.9 at 2 hours, that either suggests the low GI of burgen and beans meant carbs were still arriving OR maybe just meter inaccuracy (up to 20% either way) 🙄

A gentle walk may well bring your numbers down.

 

[Newtothis]

Mark - looks like Baked Beans are another of those YDMV (your diabetes may vary) ones then. They always behave themselves impeccably for me - in fact I usually don't count them for their 'full' CHO load as their release is slow enough in me that I risk the injected insulin overtaking their absorption and dipping into a hypo!

Actually Newtothis, the meal doesn't seem a disastrous rise (although the 1hr peak was higher than you wanted) as you went from 7ish to 10.2. In the future you might consider a lower carb load whenenver you start higher?

As for the 10.9 at 2 hours, that either suggests the low GI of burgen and beans meant carbs were still arriving OR maybe just meter inaccuracy (up to 20% either way) 🙄

A gentle walk may well bring your numbers down.

So glad to hear from you; I went on my treatmill for 15mins - gentle pace. I'm going to test again at 5pm. This is 4hrs after the meal to see if my sugars have reduced. I didn't really want to eat the bread because I swapped it with wholemeal pitta but thought I'd give it a go with advice from DN. I think, in future I'll leave the bread and baked beans. Can I ask how high can someone's sugar go. I'm really shocked at these numbers....

 

[everydayupsanddowns]

The 'guideline' levels for a t2 are no higher than 8.5 by 2 hours after meals (and no lower than 4.0 ever). Ideally you shoudl aim to be no higher than 7 before eating (as you've seen a higher starting point gives you less room for manoeuvre!)

In reality though? At Dx for type 1 I was measured at 40.something. Standard BG meters usually only go up to 33mmol/L and above that just read 'Hi'.

I think it's more difficult for T2s who are still procuding at least some of their own insulin to reach really high numbers. But 10.2 is a bit rather than a lot high. BG levels in the teens for any length of time make you feel really grim and are pretty hard on the cardiovascular system and organs where fine blood vessels exist - eyes... kidneys... blah blah)

Having said that you reached it with a moderate portion of low-GI food. If you'd had a massive sugary feast the level would surely have been much worse!

 

[Blythespirit]

I'd agree with Mike that it looks like Baked Beans are the culprit here. Before diagnosis one of my favourite lunches was a jacket potato and beans. I thought it was healthy. I don't eat that now as I know it will spike me. Don't be too scared of a reading 10.9 2 hour after food. I know it's higher than we would like but it's not a disaster. A lot of people would be pleased to get that. Back in the spring when my levels went haywire I was getting 28 before meals! Sometimes as high as 33 after! Now that is definitely not where we want to be! But I was still working and looking after my family. In a fashion. One high reading wont cause you any problems, but you should learn from it and move on.

You're doing just great so don't worry. By testing you are finding out what's best for you to eat to keep your levels down. Well done. XXXXX

 

[everydayupsanddowns]

Are you OK with other sorts of jacket potatoes Faith? I know lots of folks who can't have them at all 😱

And you're right - one high reading (or even a week's worth) won't do any harm.

All we can do is to do the best we can BG-wise for as much of the time as we can manage 🙂

 

[Blythespirit]

I can have a small one with tuna and salad. I tend to stick to small new potatoes or those baby salad ones. I can have a tablespoon of beans with bacon and egg but not on toast. I go days with no bread at all mind. XXXXX

 

[Newtothis]

I'd agree with Mike that it looks like Baked Beans are the culprit here. Before diagnosis one of my favourite lunches was a jacket potato and beans. I thought it was healthy. I don't eat that now as I know it will spike me. Don't be too scared of a reading 10.9 2 hour after food. I know it's higher than we would like but it's not a disaster. A lot of people would be pleased to get that. Back in the spring when my levels went haywire I was getting 28 before meals! Sometimes as high as 33 after! Now that is definitely not where we want to be! But I was still working and looking after my family. In a fashion. One high reading wont cause you any problems, but you should learn from it and move on.

You're doing just great so don't worry. By testing you are finding out what's best for you to eat to keep your levels down. Well done. XXXXX

Thank you so much for above; as I've never been that high before it's a worry. I've just tested and my bloods are now 6. I'm going to have a light dinner but definately no beans and as for the bread; I'm going back to wholemeal pitta. Thanks for reassurance x 🙂

 

[Newtothis]

The 'guideline' levels for a t2 are no higher than 8.5 by 2 hours after meals (and no lower than 4.0 ever). Ideally you shoudl aim to be no higher than 7 before eating (as you've seen a higher starting point gives you less room for manoeuvre!)

In reality though? At Dx for type 1 I was measured at 40.something. Standard BG meters usually only go up to 33mmol/L and above that just read 'Hi'.

I think it's more difficult for T2s who are still procuding at least some of their own insulin to reach really high numbers. But 10.2 is a bit rather than a lot high. BG levels in the teens for any length of time make you feel really grim and are pretty hard on the cardiovascular system and organs where fine blood vessels exist - eyes... kidneys... blah blah)

Having said that you reached it with a moderate portion of low-GI food. If you'd had a massive sugary feast the level would surely have been much worse!

Thank you for above; funny but I didn't feel unwell or anything; infact I've never had any symptoms before or since diagnosis. I'm going to leave off the baked beans and replace the bread with my favourite wholemeal pitta bread. Going to have a light dinner at about 6.30pm. I couldn't work out why my reading prior to lunch was 6.9 but then realised I had porridge this morning. I'm sure the 15mins on the cross-trainer helped; I did 8,000 steps before lunch (went shopping and walked miles). I'm really struggling with food at the moment because I'm losing weight but want to ensure I'm getting enough of the vital proteins/carbs etc...

Thanks again for your reassurance - I really appreciate it. 🙂 xx

 

[everydayupsanddowns]

Hi Newtothis

Just one more suggestion...

It is worth being a little cautious before dismissing foods entirely. One reading here or there might be caused by all sorts of things. It can be worth persevering and suffering a few high numbers until you are sure that 'x' sends your BGs up repeatedly. Otherwise you might be needlessly denying yourself different things.

Mike