Class 2 HGV Licence Revoked by DVLA

[pompey21]

I was diagnosed as atype 2 diabetic in Dec 2001, and have until june 2013 been controlled with tablets and diet. In June this year my GP put me on a mixed strength Insulin. After monitoring and testing rigorously since then we have arrived at a dose of 25units twice daily.
Having not driven an HGV since December (due to unemployment) and the uncertainty of the effects of the insulin on me, i only contactd DVLA End Oct/early Novemeber.
Shock horror the message i recieved back was that my licence was being revoked.
When i phoned DVLA, they said it was because i had ticked the wrong box in Question 8 a & b. a) do you check your blood glucose(sugar) at least twice daily to which i think i answered No and (b) do you check your blood glucose levels no more that 2 hours before the start of your first journey and every 2 hours whilst driving to which i honestly answered No
I explained that as this was to do with my HGV licence and i had not been driving since December that i had answered the questions with that relevance in mind.
I was told by DVLA there was nothing else they could, and after getting slightly irate with them the phone was put down on me.
I wrote to DVLA (Medical Group) fully explaining the situation regarding my monitoring and testing regime and the fact that being new to insulin i tested on a recordable memory meter several times a day to start with and less so in line with advice from my GP and Nurse. And that i had answered the questions relevent to HGV driving.
It seems you are not able to talk to the decision makers, they have not seen or asked for medical evidence, and attempts to remonstrate with their ignorance are met by the call be ended prematurely by DVLA staff.
They have now sent me a stack of forms asking me to completely restart the process of applying for my HGV Class 2 entitlements including questionaires that cover a complete health check and sight check. They have also insisted that my standard DVLA medical checks are now 3 yearly and not 5 yearly.
It is deeply distressing and upsetting that these faceless people seem to be able to make life changing decisions on people without exploring any other medical evidence than a tick box. Any advice appreciated. For my part i am speaking both with my GP and Lawyer next week with a view to ending this ridiculous and unfair system of persecution of Drivers with Diabetes for good.
I am happy to involve others in this campaign who have suffered a similiar fate at the hands of the DVLA Medical "Executioners"Group. Ps as further info i have never had a Hypo or a Hyper, although i am fully aware of how i feel all day everyday. and even if feeling slightly unwell i test immediately to see if that is the cause.

 

[Pumper_Sue]

Hi Pompey,
If as you say you ticked the wrong boxes then it's down to you.
You have in fact revoked your own driving licence.
HGV licences are normally for 1 year only with a strict medical for each renewal
Normal car licence for anyone on insulin is 3 years at the most, so what you have is a standard medically restricted licence.
By law you have to test at least twice a day whilst on insulin and every 2 hours whilst driving.
So I think you are very lucky to even hang on to your car licence.

Good luck in getting it back though.

 

[Copepod]

Welcome to the forum, Pompey21.

Sorry to hear about your licence. Sue has covered the points already. Good luck with your appeal. It might be worth contacting Diabetes UK careline for additional help - http://www.diabetes.org.uk/How_we_help/Talk-to-someone/Careline/

 

[pompey21]

You can fight back

Hi Pumper Sue, thank you for comment, last time i looked being Diabetic was not a crime,neither was making an honest error on an ambiguous form however if we allow the faceless people at DVLA to demonise all Diabetics as a single class of people they will.
For the record my readings in 12 years have never been below 5.8 and never above 16. My GP and Practice Nurse are content, i am content,stress is a bigger killer. My record as both a driver and HGV Class 2 driver is exemplary, no points, no bans, no accidents. The questions on the form i recieved were as a result of my informing DVLA that i was now on insulin. (maybe i should not have told them !!! )and avoided the persecution.
I followed up a call to DVLA with a full letter of explanation, which although received, has been largely ignored (they dont want to believe me and they dont want me to be able to proove them wrong)
I have the necessary proof to meet all the criteria that they have placed before me, however DVLA are not going to allow me the opportunity to present it to them. And so being denied reasonable access to complete a legislative process, i will now take on the DVLA in the courts. When i win i will post the result here in the hope that the give ups and the apathetics can also have the courage to fight back. If we do not turn back the tide of "the world according to an administrator" it will sweep all before it, i intend to live in a house not a filling cabinet.🙂😡🙂

 

[Northerner]

I'm not a driver pompey, so can't offer any constructive help, but just want to wish you well and hope that you get your license at the earliest possible opportunity. 🙂 A misunderstanding of the import of the question should not deny you your livelihood. I am sure that if the question had been 'Do you promise to test according to DVLA rules once your license is issued, and provide evidence to support this?' the answer would have been 'Yes'.

Good luck!

 

[pompey21]

Absolutely correct Northerner. It was being totally open and honest with people of a single mind function that has caused the difficulty. The problem is DVLA lives in a box (maybe a tick box) so the ability to think outside of it is not something we can expect from them. Having fought battles with Govt Departments many times and won, it still gives me some sardonic pleasure, thatwhen faced with a judge and the law, they suddenly realise that there cosy little admin world of paperwork,policies and teaboats does not give them the right to act outside of civil rights and general law.
I suspect when the dust settles , they will send out a memo, promising a new policy,to be used when the previous policy fails or is misunderstood.
I will write one for them its called "Common Sense and the ability to intepret "guidelines"
i have no doubt that someone will then have to write a course to teach it and a policy to support it, not to mention statistics,flow charts and spreadsheets.
How did we ever manage to survive without them in the 50's 60's 70's and dare i say 80's and early 90's.
Beware the new enemy of the people "The Admin Army" coming to you in 3D
Ps is one classed as a junior member by age or time on the forum, for the record i am 56

 

[Pumper_Sue]

Pompey,
no one actually reads the forms you send in, they are scanned and then an automatic revoke of licence goes out.

 

[Northerner]

...
Ps is one classed as a junior member by age or time on the forum, for the record i am 56

It's related to number of posts made:

0 = Junior Member
30-99 = Member
>99 = Senior Member 🙂

Pompey,
no one actually reads the forms you send in, they are scanned and then an automatic revoke of licence goes out.

Then insufficient data is being collected or the phrasing of the question is inadequate for the purpose. After being a designer of data systems for 30 years I've seen countless examples - the 'computer says no' syndrome 😱 Government systems are full of things that are based on former manual systems that have been incorrectly converted to electronic ones, the tax system is a fine example where some elements of their rules cannot be implemented in computerised payroll systems without ambiguity (which even the IR can't give a straight answer on).

 

[novorapidboi26]

I believe as an insulin dependant diabetic I could never apply for a class 1/2 HGV but I don't know if that is strictly the case for an existing license holder.

There may be some appeal you may have to go through with input from your health care professionals......

I think there is hope......so go forth and enquire.......good luck.....🙂

 

[pompey21]

Hi Again Pumper Sue. In case i wasnt clear. I have a 3 month record of up to date tesing on a recordable/memory meter which shows the control they insist upon.
But the DVLA seem reluctant to accept this having already made their decision. I acepted in the letter that i wrote to them that ticking the boxs incorrectly was my fault and clarified not only that, but the honest thinking to my action.
Reading a lot of the posts on here, and elsewhere it would appear, as i said earlier that DVLA are slowly introducing a one cap fits all approach. And if we are not careful and dont fight back now, it would not surprise me if this current govt does not slip in a new policy banning us from driving simply becuase we have Diabetes. They already appear to hold an assumption that all diabetics, caused their own problems because we are of course all burger munching, choclate eating couch potatoes. We know that is unfair and stereotypical thinking. But unfortunately unless they are made to see things clearly, they will keep making blind judgements.

 

[Redkite]

Hi Pompey, hope you can get this sorted out soon. Just wanted to say that you should always err on the side of caution when driving if you are on insulin - best practice is to test your BG immediately before setting off and at least every 2 hours throughout the journey (just because you've never had a hypo doesn't mean you never could!). If you were ever to be involved in an accident and found to be hypo, you could be charged with driving under the influence of drugs (ie. insulin). And of course, though the process is tiresome, you did the right thing to inform the DVLA, otherwise you would have invalidated your motor insurance.

Good luck! 🙂

 

[pompey21]

Thank You

Thank you Redkite.
I have and do test appropriately, and like the large majority of diabetics, do not leave things to chance.
As i have stated previously, as DVLA want to take the hard line, so will i . i look forward to their grovelling apology, when they have been savaged in court.
Though it might be difficult getting an android to give evidence on their behalf ?

 

[trophywench]

Pompey!!!!

APPEAL !!!!!

I know it's a complete PITA, but the fact is, the people employed to check the answers on our forms, until their SET SCRIPT is 100% satisfied, don't have any more clue about diabetes than they do about heart attacks, eyesight or anything else. In other words - no clue whatsoever.

Unless you can pass all the initial hurdles, as you say, nobody medical gets to see your form.

My own GP incurred their wrath once on an HGV renewal for a non-diabetic lorry driver. "Is the driver's Blood Pressure less than (a certain reading)?" My GP answered with the actual reading, which was excellent and well under that required. However, as he had not answered the question with one of the ONLY answers allowed - ie either Yes or No - the form was immediately thrown out.

Utterly ridiculous - but that is how it is.

It has been FAR worse and Diabetes UK have done one heck of a lot to get it as good as it is at the moment, so count your blessings and complain to your MP.

But in the meantime - APPEAL.

 

[pompey21]

All, having spoken again today to DVLA, i have confirmed that it appears you can put forward whatever medical evidence you like, but if the tick box police have caught you out, then you can forget it.
Also if you sign and date a "declaration" and subsequently send, sign and date a letter correcting an errror in your declaration. Then tough luck your letter is ignored as according to DVLA it does not represent a statement of fact by you.
A campaign to bring about serious change to the way DVLA deal with us "diabetic criminals" is underway. It is organised by a group called change .org
I would prefer to see Diabetes UK and other Diabetic groups getting involved.
Also some specialist medical representation would not go amiss.
We suffer from an illness,we should have it properly understood and our rights upheld.

 

[pompey21]

Sorry trophywench had already posted a reply before i read yours.
An appeal will be submitted. i am seeing both my GP and Lawyer tomorrow as i will appeal throughthe magistrates court.
Apparently i have 21 days to return the reapplication for my HGV Class 2 Licence. this also includes a full driver medical with my GP.
Bit of a Bxxxxx as it takes longer than that to get a normal appt let alone one long enough to carry this out.
I can almost be classed as pen friend of my Local MP, however her actions so far are about as much use as a choclate fireguard, Unfortunately Tory and its the party line all the way afraid.
Thank you for being there though, at least your not apathetic about the issues we face. x

 

[trophywench]

You should be able to get an earlier apt than that Pompey, if you explain it's a specific DVLA driving licence one with a time limit.

Does it have to be your own GP though? cos I know when you aren't diabetic and are over 70 and want to keep your C1 (which everyone loses at 70 unless they specifically re-apply for it) you can go to another doctor and there are businesses that do just these sort of medicals which are often cheaper then a GP will charge - cos you have to pay for the medical in that case, and I thought even your own GP charged a fee for doing the medicals for 'occupational' driving licences. Which at our surgery, is a fair bit cheaper than if it's a 'leisure' licence! I get to hear all these things cos we have a motorhome and some of them are over the statutory 3.5 tonnes and of course many people with these things are retired.

Or, you might drive a vintage lorry or something as a hobby, etc.

Anyway having a meter with the statutory 3 month memory, any medic can look at that and see whether you've had hypos or not, it isn't something only your own GP could do. In fact, you'd probably have to show the person how to access the flippin memory - I know my GP wouldn't have the foggiest clue!

 

[pompey21]

Follow up to earlier posts re revoke of class 2 licence: After speaking with Lawyer, I Have been to GP and Optician to complete new D4. Have filled in all the other paperwork DVLA sent me and checked with them as to its validity and correctness, i am sending it today.
Fingers crossed all will be back to normal soon.
GP coucelled that in his experience, trying to legally appeal or argue with DVLA puts you on a hiding to nowhere fast. His advice was to complete the new/replacement forms as requested and follow their process regardless of its aparent ambiguity and oft non sensical nature.
Submit the apropriate forms completed by GP and Optician, Sit back make a cup of tea and wait for their process to run its course. oohm PG Tips.🙂

 

[Northerner]

Good luck Pompey, hope they come up with the (heavy!) goods! Let us know how you get on, and enjoy your cuppa.

 

[trophywench]

Well - good luck with it! - I hope you succeed.